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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:54 am Post subject: TO shooting - bus, teen, knife, bad words |
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Anyone watch the recent vids of the shooting on a TO bus? Seems there was a teen, possibly drunk, holding a knife. Cops came, told him to put it down, he said "you're pussies", and they shot him - 9 times... and THEN tazed him!
Some of it makes sense, but some just seems odd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG6OTyjzAgg
This vid has a pretty decent analysis of it.
http://globalnews.ca/news/751568/watch-former-police-officer-analyzes-streetcar-shooting-video/ |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:09 am Post subject: |
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I have very little sympathy for people who decide to wave possibly dangerous weapons in public.
However he didn't hurt anyone at that point and wasn't motioning on hurting anyone, so I think the shooting is questionable. There were like 10 cops there, and more on the way. Why couldn't 4 guys just charge the guy? Or tazer him before deciding to put 9 bullets in a guy with just a knife? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Why couldn't 4 guys just charge the guy? |
Someone could be stabbed, why risk it?
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Or tazer him before deciding to put 9 bullets in a guy with just a knife? |
I am given to understand that the average police officer in Canada is actually not allowed to carry a taser, only sergeants and emergency task force members. I read that the officer who shot Mr. Yatim here actually called for a taser twice, but before it came, he began to advance and the officer felt compelled to shoot. Given there are activists in Canada who campaign against taser use by the police, and these activists play a role in keeping tasers out of the hands of the average first responder, perhaps they should ask themselves why they felt this young man being shot instead of being tased was a superior outcome? |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:30 am Post subject: |
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If you're waving a knife around then you run the risk of being shot. Why should police officers risk being stabbed?
This sends a strong message out that waving knives around on public transport in Canada is likely to get you shot. That's not a terrible message to send out, IMHO. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Message against waving knives by shooting someone 9 times? Seriously?
Like the analyst in the video said, it should be interesting to see what happened after the first 3 shots from another perspective (the TTC camera). Were the other police officers trying to keep the shooting police officer away because he was deranged or were they doing it because there was danger coming from the person that was shot already shot?
The campaign against tazers was started for very similar reasons - police officers tazing many times a person that was already down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident
Then again, I actually have nothing against tazers - the problem is not the tazers that the police carry, not the guns - just the individual police officers that abuse power via whichever tools they carry. The same police officer could have kicked someone to death in his deranged state - as such, he should be locked up, while other police officers should still be allowed to wear boots, as well as carry guns and tazers. That, of course, is only my opinion. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Terrell Owens shot someone? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
I have very little sympathy for people who decide to wave possibly dangerous weapons in public.
However he didn't hurt anyone at that point and wasn't motioning on hurting anyone, so I think the shooting is questionable. There were like 10 cops there, and more on the way. Why couldn't 4 guys just charge the guy? Or tazer him before deciding to put 9 bullets in a guy with just a knife? |
As far as nine bullets go...that's not excessive. Here's an excerpt from a paper written by a former field agent on handguns.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
| Quote: |
FirearmsTactical.com
Reproduced with Permission of the Author
16
CONCLUSIONS
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the
battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only
way to force incapacitation is to cause
sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is
instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action
for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The
bullet must
pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."
42, 43
Given desirable and
reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. |
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detonate
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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The second video of the OPs second link shows that just 3 bullets were probably enough.
The guy in the bus hit the floor after 3 shots... cop waited a few seconds then shot 6 more into a body that was not standing. One could give the cop the benefit of the doubt and say maybe the kid was about to try throwing the knife at the cop after being shot 3 times?
More likely the cop didn't handle himself well. Stop at 3, he hit the floor. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like a highly questionable killing to me. Shooting someone dead should be a very last resort, especially if he's not immediately endangering anyone. How about a leg shot guys? Or tossing in a gas cannister to knock him out. The kid was eighteen years old. He might have had mental problems or on a bad trip. No call to end his life. Who was he threatening? Aren't the police trained in how to end standoffs like this without fatalities occuring?
I hope this shooting is thoroughly investigated. If the cop is found guilty of violating the 'reasonable force' rule he should go right to jail.
Last edited by Scorpion on Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As far as nine bullets go...that's not excessive. Here's an excerpt from a paper written by a former field agent on handguns.
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Right, of course a cop could have shot the dude in his arm 20 times and that would certainly not be enough - or he could have missed all 9 times and I would then say that perhaps 9 bullets is not enough -
I do hope that the other video shows exactly what happened after the initial shots were made. Based on the reaction of the other cops, I suspect that the shooting cop had mental issues of his own. I'm not saying that the man with the knife in one hand and his dick in the other was somehow better, but two wrongs don't make a right.
For now, we'll have to wait for the investigation to be concluded, yet based on the past investigations of the police in Canada (the tazing incident being one such example) - I suspect that the cop will not be found guilty of any wrongdoing.
Last edited by maximmm on Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I just watched the second video posted by Captain. I definitely foresee jail time in that cop's future - or at least his discharge from the police and a lawsuit. No city needs to have thug cops on the streets. Then the fool sargeant tases the kid when he's on the ground - after being shot nine times.  Seems like a very avoidable death. Let's hope justice is done.
edit: The officer has been suspended pending an investigation. Lots of links here:
http://article.wn.com/view/2013/07/29/Sammy_Yatim_Toronto_police_to_probe_tram_shooting_death/#/related_news |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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The first shots I get - he was warned, and he proceeded towards the officer (or it looks that way). Now, I might prefer that the officer defused the situation more, but once the call is made, you don't go at them.
The whole "shooting the guy when he's down", then have another officer run up and taze him... sounds like amature hour over kill. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how the cop will try to justify it -
'I thought he was holding a nuclear explosive device, not a knife'
'After I shot him three times - he fell, but then he started to blink with menace - which indicated an imminent danger to myself and my co-workers, which is why I shot him another 6 times'
The tazer cop's excuse will no doubt be even more creative.
Last edited by maximmm on Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| well, after you shoot the terminator, it'll still keep coming. If movies have taught me anything, it's to empty the clip!!! |
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