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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:43 pm Post subject: EU attempts to silence Le Pen |
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Marine Le Pen is getting a little bit too popular, so the EU has decided to lift her immunity from prosecution so that the French can charge her with 'incitement to racial hatred.'
Marine Le Pen expected to face charges for incitement to racial hatred
Marine Le Pen, the leader of France's far-right Front National, is expected to face charges of incitement to racial hatred in France after the European parliament voted to lift her parliamentary immunity.
The French state prosecutor in Lyon had asked the European parliament to lift Le Pen's protection from prosecution as an MEP so she could face charges over a speech in 2010 in which she likened Muslim street prayers to the Nazi occupation of France.
The move by the EU thought police is in no way related to this:
The Front National is currently at a high in the opinion polls, after a strong score in a byelection in Villeneuve-sur-Lot in south-west France, where the party knocked out the Socialists and scored 46% of the vote in the final round.
A recent poll for YouGov about voting intentions in the European parliament elections next year put the Front National on 18%, one point behind the traditional rightwing UMP and ahead of the Socialist party. The party is hoping for gains in the French local elections next year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/02/marine-le-pen-immunity-lifted |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Her statement about the colonization being similar to WW2 is pretty good. The people who are trying to silence her are collaborators, and so on. It's a good theme she should roll with.
Europe is going to light up like a big fireball of rage and violence. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| I find it odd and disturbing that a political party that would like to impose a restriction on street prayers and muslims in general would turn around and compare street prayers to the Nazi occupation of France. If Le-Pens party ever won (heaven forbid) they are the ones that would do the things that Nazi way, Krystalnacht and all other kinds of abuse towards minorities. It's also sad to see hate-mongers making progress, and bewildering to see that they would turn around and point the finger at others calling them Nazis. But I guess they would not be able to see the irony, they basically will lie and do anything to hurt anyone they see as different. Maybe it's best that the French stamp them out. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If Le-Pens party ever won (heaven forbid) they are the ones that would do the things that Nazi way, Krystalnacht and all other kinds of abuse towards minorities |
Hysterical nonsense. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| It's also sad to see hate-mongers making progress |
They make progress in no small part because of the character of their opposition. Opposing Muslim street prayers is completely reasonable, almost common sensical. Calling it "hate mongering" just alienates reasonable people who might otherwise be willing to compromise with you, driving them to support someone like Le Penn for lack of visible options. Most people want to approach things moderately, but if that isn't allowed, and people are told, "Oh, you don't like Muslims praying in the street? You're a Nazi," well, some of them will end up saying, "If I've got to be for or against you, I guess it's going to be against you."
| young_clinton wrote: |
| But I guess they would not be able to see the irony, they basically will lie and do anything to hurt anyone they see as different. Maybe it's best that the French stamp them out. |
You seem just as willing to have the "different" persecuted, albeit on an alternate set of criteria for "difference." You're essentially saying that serious criticism of open third world immigration should be de facto illegal. That's freedom for you, eh?
The EU in its current incarnation is probably finished in the long term, it's just a question of how much damage and suffering is caused before it's allowed to be admitted. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Why does Le-Pen want to ban street prayers? Because they're different and alien. There is no other reason. Why do bigots hate other races and religions? Because they're different. Sure there are some Muslims who are intolerant too. But I don't see them having a major political party in France. How many of the street prayers actually pose a risk to the average Frenchman. Why would anyone say they should not be allowed to hold street prayers? Especially in this day and age. It would be just because they don't like Muslims, nothing else. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| Why does Le-Pen want to ban street prayers? Because they're different and alien. There is no other reason. |
There's no other reason that someone might oppose such things? Do not be silly, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to frown on street prayers.
| Quote: |
The French government has enacted a new law prohibiting Muslims from praying in the streets, but on the first day of the ban hundreds of Muslims defied the law by taking over streets and sidewalks in Paris and other French cities to pray.
The ban, which took effect on September 16, is the government's response to growing public anger in France over the phenomenon of Muslim street prayers.
Every Friday, thousands of Muslims from Paris to Marseille and elsewhere close off streets and sidewalks (by doing so, they close down local businesses and trap non-Muslim residents in their homes and offices) to accommodate overflowing crowds for midday prayers. Some mosques have also begun broadcasting sermons and chants of "Allahu Akbar" via loudspeakers in the streets. |
That is not merely alien, it is intrusive. If the French people do not wish to tolerate this bizarre nuisance, they are entirely within their rights to act. By contrast, you have no stake in their society, so let's be perfectly clear: her reason for opposing street prayers can be justified in an entirely reasonable, pragmatic fashion, while your opposition of her is because her views are alien and different to yours; you have no stake in their society, you demand others put up with the problems you yourself need not suffer from, and you do it all for purely ideological reasons, for unlike Ms. Le Penn here, you really do have no others.
If Muslims want to block off the streets every single day and pray, they can do it in one of the many Muslim countries available. The French have built a society that people wish to immigrate to, and they are completely within their rights to limit intrusive cultural behavior as part of the price of admission. But you and people like you can't handle that, so you'll keep demonizing reasonable Frenchmen in accordance with your ideology, and they'll just grow exasperated and turn to the far right in ever-greater numbers because of it. Don't be surprised when it all goes to Hell.
| young_clinton wrote: |
How many of the street prayers actually pose a risk to the average Frenchman. Why would anyone say they should not be allowed to hold street prayers? Especially in this day and age. It would be just because they don't like Muslims, nothing else. |
It's so easy to trivialize and demand other's put up with things that will never affect you, right? Clearly the only reason one might take issue with hoardes of Muslims blocking off the street in front of one's place of business every day, obstructing foot traffic, halting commerce, and irritating people with blaring loud speakers, is that, "They just don't like Muslims," for entirely arbitrary reasons. They're like Captain Planet villains, possessed of a strong desire to be "bad guys," while simultaneously lacking any even hypothetically legitimate basis for their actions. Don your "Equality Ring" and fight on, brave Egaliteer. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| By contrast, you have no stake in their society, so let's be perfectly clear: her reason for opposing street prayers can be justified in an entirely reasonable, pragmatic fashion |
Fox:
I would amend your remarks to read "her ostensible reason". Because I think I know enough about the National Front to surmise that Marine Le Pen didn't simply hear reports about over-crowding on French streets, objectively examine all the possible solutions, and then reach the sincere conclusion that the best available option was to ban Muslim prayers. Rather, she was looking for an issue to spin into her pre-existing anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim agenda.
You yourself seem to acknowledge that Le Pen is not exactly an honest broker with your earlier comments about why people support her...
| Quote: |
| Calling it "hate mongering" just alienates reasonable people who might otherwise be willing to compromise with you, driving them to support someone like Le Penn for lack of visible options. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| By contrast, you have no stake in their society, so let's be perfectly clear: her reason for opposing street prayers can be justified in an entirely reasonable, pragmatic fashion |
Fox:
I would amend your remarks to read "her ostensible reason". Because I think I know enough about the National Front to surmise that Marine Le Pen didn't simply hear reports about over-crowding on French streets, objectively examine all the possible solutions, and then reach the sincere conclusion that the best available option was to ban Muslim prayers. Rather, she was looking for an issue to spin into her pre-existing anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim agenda.
You yourself seem to acknowledge that Le Pen is not exactly an honest broker with your earlier comments about why people support her...
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| Calling it "hate mongering" just alienates reasonable people who might otherwise be willing to compromise with you, driving them to support someone like Le Penn for lack of visible options. |
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That's a reasonable point. Plenty of people, however, will take issue with that intrusive behavior in and if itself, and my purpose lies more in defending them than her specifically (though I have heard her say entirely reasonable things about the EU and the Euro). |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| (though I have heard her say entirely reasonable things about the EU and the Euro). |
Here's something I found ironic in the article...
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| Marine Le Pen, the leader of France's far-right Front National, is expected to face charges of incitement to racial hatred in France after the European parliament voted to lift her parliamentary immunity |
I wonder what Le Pen's left-leaning, pro-Europe opponents, think about her losing immunity at the request of a French prosecutor. I'm assuming that under normal circumstances, they would want the European parliament to over-ride local wishes in matters where it has already claimed the right to do so. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
I wonder what Le Pen's left-leaning, pro-Europe opponents, think about her losing immunity at the request of a French prosecutor. I'm assuming that under normal circumstances, they would want the European parliament to over-ride local wishes in matters where it has already claimed the right to do so. |
'lol', what? The French left played a big part in France's rejection of the putative European Constitution, they reckoned it was a charter to facilitate rampant neo-liberal Captialism, as they called it. The left there is far from being pro-European. They're also lobbying for the exact opposite for what you claim with regards to the talks over that EU-US Free Trade deal people are wanting to get on with. They want the EU to accede to local wishes and exempt the French arts/cultural sector from any deal, not over-ride local wishes.
I'm sure they'd love Le Pen to get a proverbial bloody nose though...a nd I'm sure Le Pen is loving it, makes her look like a martyr. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Chellovek:
Yeah. I wasn't thinking of the "left" left so much. More like the centre-left, ie. the Socialists, and even the Gaullist parties insofar as they are to the left of the National Front.
Basically, if you're someone who a) supports Europe having whatever trans-national powers it enjoys at the present time, but b) wants Marine Le Pen put on trial, how do you feel about the European Parliament ceding jurisdiction to a French court?
For what it's worth, Le Pen herself seems to be trying to strike a pose of heroic consistency, saying she considers it an "honour" to be stripped of her immunity. I'm gonna speculate, though, that she wasn't heroic enough to demand said honour before the parliament forced it upon her. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/geert-wilders-party-now-polling-at-no-1/
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| Geert Wilders Party Now Polling at No. 1 |
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/07/geert_wilders_spreads_his_euro.php
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Geert Wilders, leader of the anti-immigration PVV, is hoping to work together with Swedish and Italian nationalist parties as well as Belgium's Vlaams Belang and the Front National in France, Nos television reports.
Wilders, who has made no secret of his contacts with the Belgian and French nationalists, told Nos he has now had contact with the Eurosceptic Sweden Democrats and will also meet officials from the Lega Nord in Italy.
These are parties which share a lot of similar attitudes to Europe as the PVV and now is a good time to work together, the PVV leader said. Elections for the European parliament take place next spring.
'I think we should talk to other parties which are critical of Europe to see if we can work together,' Wilders said.
Criticism by other PVV supporters of some of the parties' opposition to gay rights and gay marriage are 'understandable' but not relevant to the campaign against European control and mass immigration, he said.
'These are not reasons not to work together,' Wilders told the Nos. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Chellovek:
Yeah. I wasn't thinking of the "left" left so much. More like the centre-left, ie. the Socialists, and even the Gaullist parties insofar as they are to the left of the National Front.
Basically, if you're someone who a) supports Europe having whatever trans-national powers it enjoys at the present time, but b) wants Marine Le Pen put on trial, how do you feel about the European Parliament ceding jurisdiction to a French court?
For what it's worth, Le Pen herself seems to be trying to strike a pose of heroic consistency, saying she considers it an "honour" to be stripped of her immunity. I'm gonna speculate, though, that she wasn't heroic enough to demand said honour before the parliament forced it upon her. |
Ah, gotcha.
I understood you in the sense of proper European left. Hence why I questioned it. |
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