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Who was history's greatest admiral?
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michaelfehon



Joined: 13 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: What makes a great Admiral ? Reply with quote

Is it the value of his success or his leadership and decision making ? The outcomes of many naval battles have a lot to do with luck and circumstance.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: What makes a great Admiral ? Reply with quote

michaelfehon wrote:
Is it the value of his success or his leadership and decision making ? The outcomes of many naval battles have a lot to do with luck and circumstance.


In Yi's case, it is likely his leadership and decision making. The fact that when the fleet was not under his leadership, it was trounced, and when that shattered remnant under his leadership was able to rally and achieve a remarkable victory, suggests that his leadership and decision making were very much a factor. The details of his battles suggest an extreme aptitude for understand how to use terrain to its maximum advantage and "force multipliers". Furthermore, his nerve in the face of a lack of information and his willingness to pursue a beaten foe to achieve a maximum result is further testament to his admiralship. Those may sound like simple things, but even the best captains (in the military leader sense of the term, not the rank or naval connotation), failed at times to employ. Most importantly, even as a land army commander, he had such a long record of success, untouched by defeat, that it demonstrates that tactical brilliance (as well as the ineptness of his foes) were a large factor in his success.

For example captains like, McClellan or Nagumo suffered from a crippling lack of nerve, despite being competent soldiers and having solid forces. Others, like Braxton Bragg, could achieve significant victories, but fail to follow that up with an aggressive pursuit.
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Smithington



Joined: 14 Dec 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails, it's clear that you know more military history than most on this forum, myself included. Having said that, your quote from Admiral Togo says nothing about the veracity of the story under discussion - about his 333 ships being beaten by Shin's 12. Is that the only source you have from the Japanese side? It's not much to go on. He's just praising an opponent. And let's face it, usually when someone is unexpectedly defeated it's not unknown for them to lionize the person who defeated them. "You should have seen the size of this guy. Noone could have beaten him." Again, exagerating your opponents abilities helps deflect criticism of your own failure. It's a universal human trait, and if that's the only Japanese source you have it doesn't add much to the discussion.

What else ya got?
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smithington wrote:
Steelrails, it's clear that you know more military history than most on this forum, myself included. Having said that, your quote from Admiral Togo says nothing about the veracity of the story under discussion - about his 333 ships being beaten by Shin's 12. Is that the only source you have from the Japanese side? It's not much to go on. He's just praising an opponent. And let's face it, usually when someone is unexpectedly defeated it's not unknown for them to lionize the person who defeated them. "You should have seen the size of this guy. Noone could have beaten him." Again, exagerating your opponents abilities helps deflect criticism of your own failure. It's a universal human trait, and if that's the only Japanese source you have it doesn't add much to the discussion.


actually, i noticed that no-one has mentioned that shin used the tides between geogje and the mainland as a tactical advantage. I dont remember off the top of my head, but i think the japanese naval fleet got stuck like sitting ducks.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to Yi and his victories you have take into account the opposition he was facing. These grand victories destroying hundreds whilst losing only a few were because he was fighting transports and not warships.

During the opium wars 1 steamer 1 sloop and half a dozen gunboats destroyed 100 junks. Does that make the commander of that squadron a naval genius? No, he was just fighting vastly inferior opposotion.

12 ships beat hundreds? That is hardly what I call a fearsome adversary. The comments by the Japanese admirals are just attempts at turning Yi into a genius to explain away their own short comings.

Nelson was tested pretty strongly at Trafalgar, fighting a combined Franco-Spanish fleet. By fleet I mean, first rate ships of the line, not transports. All the while knowing that defeat meant the invasion and likely defeat of his homeland.

That being said I wouldn't put him number 1 and Yi would definitely be top 20.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Having said that, your quote from Admiral Togo says nothing about the veracity of the story under discussion - about his 333 ships being beaten by Shin's 12. Is that the only source you have from the Japanese side? It's not much to go on. He's just praising an opponent. And let's face it, usually when someone is unexpectedly defeated it's not unknown for them to lionize the person who defeated them. "You should have seen the size of this guy. Noone could have beaten him." Again, exagerating your opponents abilities helps deflect criticism of your own failure. It's a universal human trait, and if that's the only Japanese source you have it doesn't add much to the discussion.


You have no idea who Admiral Togo is, do you?

Before you begin to comment on this, maybe you should at least have a passing knowledge of the history of Naval Warfare.

Quote:
The comments by the Japanese admirals are just attempts at turning Yi into a genius to explain away their own short comings.


You do realize that all of those Japanese admirals were alive 400 years after Yi fired his last shot right?

They had studied Yi in their own courses on the history of Naval Warfare. The same way officers of all nations learned about Gustavus Adolphus, Frederick the Great, Marlborough, Napoleon, Wellington, Washington, Sherman, Winfield Scott, Lee, Garibaldi, Grant, and so on.

What, you actually think Yi Sun Sin is some kind of combined delusion and conspiracy by Japan and Korea?

Quote:
These grand victories destroying hundreds whilst losing only a few were because he was fighting transports and not warships.


2/3rds were transports, he was still outnumbered close to 10-1 in terms of warships. It was 133 warships to 13. Keep in mind that none of them were 'Turtle Ships' and that the Korean fleet numbered a mere 13 vessels because the Japanese warships had previously smashed a fleet of over 150 Korean warships under the leadership of an incompetent Korean admiral.

This serves to illustrate that Yi's martial skill was not completely a result of any technological edge. The Japanese were able to soundly defeat the Korean navy under another commander. They were not at such a technological disadvantage or so confused about the area in which they were fighting as to prevent them from being able to achieve victory.

Yi was another in a line of capable commanders who in a battle against long odds was able to utilize terrain to his advantage and defeat a much larger force. What elevates Yi as a military commander over all but a few of other admirals and certainly into a place in the "Mount Rushmore" of admiralship, is his continuous record of victory, without defeat, in spite of political intrigue against him and betrayal by his own country, facing long odds, being a technological innovator, and a natural tactician, all in spite of formal training.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, none of these guys has anything on Admiral James T. Kirk.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, belittle a rare example of Korean greatness in favor of a European example. Typical of this board. Anyways, you really can't compare the armed forces of two regions 500 years ago. Vastly different worlds, heck, they are vastly different worlds now. And they built technology accordingly. You guys have to admit he was pretty good admiral.

Anyways, Yi and his fleet managed to sink 31 ships and damaged 91, then the Japanese retreated. On top of that I believe one of their key fleet leader was killed early in the battle, in one of the sunken ships, the Koreans managed to salvage his body and display his head for the Japanese rank & file to see. Don't want to see your soldiers seeing that, drops their willingness to fight.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvalmer wrote:
Sure, belittle a rare example of Korean greatness in favor of a European example. Typical of this board. Anyways, you really can't compare the armed forces of two regions 500 years ago.


Did you bother to read the link in the OP?

It said GREATEST ADMIRAL IN WORLD HISTORY.

It was a korean (presumably) who decided to make a comparison of ALL WORLD ADMIRALS and concluded that yours was the best. He must have had some evidence to base his evaluation on surely?

So we're not the ones guilty of initially making comparisons, are we?
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

le-paul wrote:
jvalmer wrote:
Sure, belittle a rare example of Korean greatness in favor of a European example. Typical of this board. Anyways, you really can't compare the armed forces of two regions 500 years ago.


Did you bother to read the link in the OP?

It said GREATEST ADMIRAL IN WORLD HISTORY.

It was a korean (presumably) who decided to make a comparison of ALL WORLD ADMIRALS and concluded that yours was the best. He must have had some evidence to base his evaluation on surely?

So we're not the ones guilty of initially making comparisons, are we?


Yeah, kinda gotta agree with ol le-paul on this one.

I think with both admirals and generals commanding whole armies and navies, you have to do a "Mount Rushmore" or "of the era" kind of thing.

Now cavalry commanders, that's doable. The principles of cavalry have applied throughout history, and Bedford Forrest has to be the greatest. Artillerists? Gustavus Adolphus or perhaps Napoleon. Maybe Henry Hunt.
Submariner Admirals? Rickover vs. Donitz

Now, greatest Air commanders, that's one that will get the froth and foam going. Basically turns into a British Dowding vs. some Spaatz/Mitchell/LeMay/Doolittle American Hydra scream fest.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see anyone mentioning Themistocles. Although he was an Athenian general, he planned the deception at the Battle of Salamis.
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andrewchon



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

William Edwards Deming (a man you might know for teaching the Japanese how to make quality products) once asked a West Point Lecturer: What makes a great General?
His answer: Win five or more battles.

Deming's Statistical Control Theory, while too long to explain here, does agree with that assessment.

Winning one battle doesn't make a great admiral, either.
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@steelrails

Yes, I am aware of Togo, he is hardly an obscure figure. Also rest assured that my knowledge on this subject is sufficient for a discussion with you.

Now back to the matter at hand, the japanese ships were not warships. They were used for operations in coastal waters, where they would get close and rely on melee combat.

A simple comparison of the standard Korean and Japanese ship would show just how inferior the Japanese ships were.

As you point out the battle of 칠천량 showed that if they were allowed to use their melee tactics they were formidable. Yi's strength was to understand the japanese limitations and exploit them.

Remember I am not arguing that Yi is an idiot, just that he is not the peer of Nelson. Also that his enemy was not much of a match, as evidenced by his 12 v hundreds victory.

Finally, I am not proposing a conspiracy, defeated nations often turn their enemies into superheroes to lessen the pain of defeat. The yanks do it with the Vietnamese for example.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
@steelrails

Yes, I am aware of Togo, he is hardly an obscure figure. Also rest assured that my knowledge on this subject is sufficient for a discussion with you.

Now back to the matter at hand, the japanese ships were not warships. They were used for operations in coastal waters, where they would get close and rely on melee combat.

A simple comparison of the standard Korean and Japanese ship would show just how inferior the Japanese ships were.

As you point out the battle of 칠천량 showed that if they were allowed to use their melee tactics they were formidable. Yi's strength was to understand the japanese limitations and exploit them.

Remember I am not arguing that Yi is an idiot, just that he is not the peer of Nelson. Also that his enemy was not much of a match, as evidenced by his 12 v hundreds victory.

Finally, I am not proposing a conspiracy, defeated nations often turn their enemies into superheroes to lessen the pain of defeat. The yanks do it with the Vietnamese for example.


Good points.

I too would rank Nelson above Yi. In fact, I feel Nelson is in a class of his own. However, Yi, belongs in the discussion and is in my opinion in the top 5 in terms of naval commanders throughout history due to his impact and war record.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aq8knyus wrote:
Finally, I am not proposing a conspiracy, defeated nations often turn their enemies into superheroes to lessen the pain of defeat. The yanks do it with the Vietnamese for example.


Who told you that?
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