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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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This doesn't surprise me at all. Honestly, I think that Korean pilots should not be allowed to fly together like this. They need to be mixed in with pilots of other nationalities for a while, just to see if it makes a difference.
This looks like a knee-jerk reaction because the vast majority of flights are fine, but if the archaic Confucianist culture is responsible for just one accident, then something needs to be done.
It is about time Korea tried to drop this millstone from around their necks anyway. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
This doesn't surprise me at all. Honestly, I think that Korean pilots should not be allowed to fly together like this. They need to be mixed in with pilots of other nationalities for a while, just to see if it makes a difference.
This looks like a knee-jerk reaction because the vast majority of flights are fine, but if the archaic Confucianist culture is responsible for just one accident, then something needs to be done.
It is about time Korea tried to drop this millstone from around their necks anyway. |
Yes, there was/is a problem with the need for juniors to more easily correct their superiors, and yes the use of honorifics can slow things down. These are important points.
I do wonder, why every Korean crash must somehow be related to "culture", but any crash involving an American or European attributable to pilot error is somehow "just pilot error".
For example, lets look at this notorius USAF crash-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash
One could conclude that a "Cowboy" culture or a Good Ol Boy reluctance to chastise pilots led to this accident and it was somehow reflective of American culture.
They may or may not be right.
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On that note, I think the Korean practice of hiring former fighter jockeys as airline pilots is a particularly bad one. The fighter pilot has a mindset that is not good for flying airlines. I think the fighter pilot mindset is more responsible for the "bad cockpit culture" than Confucianism, thought Confucianism may or may not aggravate it.
I challenge you though, to find any nation where it's fighter pilots aren't rather vain in their estimation of their abilities and a bit sensitive to criticism. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Respect for elders is a basic common courtesy for most societies, but I think that it is more aggressively applied in Korea. That is fine in some situations, but not for people in charge of a plane.
Last edited by cj1976 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
On that note, I think the Korean practice of hiring former fighter jockeys as airline pilots is a particularly bad one. The fighter pilot has a mindset that is not good for flying airlines. I think the fighter pilot mindset is more responsible for the "bad cockpit culture" than Confucianism, thought Confucianism may or may not aggravate it.
I challenge you though, to find any nation where it's fighter pilots aren't rather vain in their estimation of their abilities and a bit sensitive to criticism. |
I was under the impression that this is a pretty universal practice around the world. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
On that note, I think the Korean practice of hiring former fighter jockeys as airline pilots is a particularly bad one. The fighter pilot has a mindset that is not good for flying airlines. I think the fighter pilot mindset is more responsible for the "bad cockpit culture" than Confucianism, thought Confucianism may or may not aggravate it.
I challenge you though, to find any nation where it's fighter pilots aren't rather vain in their estimation of their abilities and a bit sensitive to criticism. |
I was under the impression that this is a pretty universal practice around the world. |
At least in the US, most commercial pilots I've known have either been full-on commercial pilots their whole lives or were former Cargo/Transport/Bomber pilots, mostly with the Air National Guard.
As an off-note, if you ever fly in a light aircraft, you want you pilot to be some engineer/mechanic type. The best pilots for light civil aircraft are always gearheads. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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whoever wrote this article just felt the need to reharp malcolm gladwell's piece on the matter in outliers hoping that they'd sound clever.
english has been standard in korean flight cabins for a while now. |
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furtakk
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was pilot/s error related to alcohol. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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It's great blaming Korea culture for this crash. But how about other crashes involving European or American airliners? Confucian culture wasn't a factor in those crashes...
The pilots made a mistake, and the plane crashed. They should have been paying better attention to what they were doing.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/transport/2013/07/asiana_airlines_crash_stop_blaming_sfo_s_runways_and_korea_s_pilots_for.html
Whatever happened on final approach into SFO, I highly doubt that it was anything related to the culture of Korean air safety in 2013. Plane crashes are increasingly rare the world over. But they will continue to happen from time to time, and no airline or country is 100 percent immune. |
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saram_
Joined: 13 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was pilot/s error related to alcohol. |
Maybe- but we'll never really know.
The NTSB said there were no alcohol or drugs tests done following the accident. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
It's great blaming Korea culture for this crash. But how about other crashes involving European or American airliners? Confucian culture wasn't a factor in those crashes...
The pilots made a mistake, and the plane crashed. They should have been paying better attention to what they were doing.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/transport/2013/07/asiana_airlines_crash_stop_blaming_sfo_s_runways_and_korea_s_pilots_for.html
Whatever happened on final approach into SFO, I highly doubt that it was anything related to the culture of Korean air safety in 2013. Plane crashes are increasingly rare the world over. But they will continue to happen from time to time, and no airline or country is 100 percent immune. |
I was going to post that article. I like how it was written. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
It's great blaming Korea culture for this crash. But how about other crashes involving European or American airliners? Confucian culture wasn't a factor in those crashes...
The pilots made a mistake, and the plane crashed. They should have been paying better attention to what they were doing.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/transport/2013/07/asiana_airlines_crash_stop_blaming_sfo_s_runways_and_korea_s_pilots_for.html
Whatever happened on final approach into SFO, I highly doubt that it was anything related to the culture of Korean air safety in 2013. Plane crashes are increasingly rare the world over. But they will continue to happen from time to time, and no airline or country is 100 percent immune. |
I'm curious if you read the article you linked.
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
It's great blaming Korea culture for this crash. But how about other crashes involving European or American airliners? Confucian culture wasn't a factor in those crashes...
The pilots made a mistake, and the plane crashed. They should have been paying better attention to what they were doing.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/transport/2013/07/asiana_airlines_crash_stop_blaming_sfo_s_runways_and_korea_s_pilots_for.html
Whatever happened on final approach into SFO, I highly doubt that it was anything related to the culture of Korean air safety in 2013. Plane crashes are increasingly rare the world over. But they will continue to happen from time to time, and no airline or country is 100 percent immune. |
I'm curious if you read the article you linked.
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Yes I did. Don't know what you're getting at. Plane crashed because of one, or more, of a combination of factors like human error, mechanical failure, and environmental conditions. I think it was probably human error, just like the last two crashes in the US (one being a smallish plane in upstate NY). The pilots in those two previous crashes were talking about their personal lives, or something, and weren't fully aware of their instrumentation. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
I'm curious if you read the article you linked.
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Yes I did. Don't know what you're getting at.
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Well, you linked an article that was very well written and stated;
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Now, as for what may have happened in San Francisco: About the worst thing we can do at the moment is play fast and loose with speculation. Early theories as to why a plane crashed almost always turn out to be wrong or incomplete. All we know for certain is that the plane crashed short of the runway. That by itself is not a reason for the accident; it's the result of something else gone wrong.
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| Quote: |
Based on what the National Transportation Safety Board and other sources have reported thus far, the pilots found themselves in the throes of an unstable approach...How or why they got themselves in this position, and why they did not correct or abandon the landing sooner, remains unknown.
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Whether this was human error, mechanical failure, or some combination of the two remains to be determined.
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And you followed it by stating;
| jvalmer wrote: |
The pilots made a mistake, and the plane crashed. They should have been paying better attention to what they were doing.
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Pilot error could very well have been a cause. I just agree with the article's author that it is way too early and information too scarce to make that call.
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