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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:38 am Post subject: Language learning and age |
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Don't make fun of lifers who have lived in Korea for 20+ years yet still can't speak the language. It's not their fault.
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| Believe it or not, there is a magic bullet for learning a foreign language, and you don't even have to be a genius. The secret? Be younger than about six years old and have adequate exposure. |
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| It’s true, the younger the learner, the better they are at mimicking new sounds and adopting pronunciation. |
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| What’s more, younger learners are more skilled at identifying subtle differences in sounds. |
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| Few linguists would claim that an adult can learn a language as easily as a child. Kids have a device in their brains that are hardwired to learn a language and that facility declines over the ages 6-16 and then disappears entirely. |
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| Children learn languages better than adults because they have better hearing. When a sentence is said at normal speed the words all merge together, like written language with out gaps and punctuation, it takes a trained ear to pick up the different words and it helps if your hearing is top notch. As you get older your hearing fades so learning languages becomes harder. |
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| Our capacity to learn a language changes greatly as we get older, and not for the better. We see this in the families of immigrants whether in this country or ex-pats. The children learn the new language quickly and to a high standard, the adults find it a struggle which requires serious effort for often limited results. |
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| the language I learned as a child (French) has always somehow stuck better with me - even after long periods without using it - than the language I learned as an adolescent and speak most of the time now (German). Kind of a shame that it takes a bit more sustained effort to get languages to stick as you get older. |
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Children are better at language learning than adults. As a matter of fact, they do not learn, but acquire the language subconsciously. They learn the language at the same time as they develop their emotional regulation systems. In other words, they learn the language through perceptual channels that become integrated with the limbic system.
The fact that adults make use of their intelligence to learn a new language is not an advantage in relation to children, who accomplish the same task effortlessly. Adults have the cognitive strategies to start a language journey for which children do not need any strategy at all. If you’re learning Spanish, you’ll have to study the distinction between “ser” and “estar”, “por” and “para”, the subjunctive mood or reflexive verbs. Those are concepts that children understand instinctively without any need for formal instruction. Adults have to make a conscious effort to learn something that children acquire naturally. While a child learns any language instinctively, adults need to turn to their intelligence to learn the rules. |
I've read posts on here from lifers (such as edwardcatflap) who say they lie to taxi drivers about the amount of time they've been here because they don't want to catch sh*t for not being about to speak Korean. To me, lying is so pathetic. Why not tell the taxi drivers adults can't learn languages as well as children? Maybe then after that they won't hassle the next foreigner they meet about not being able to speak Korean well. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like the writer you're quoting is channeling Chomsky. A device in our brain that disappears over time?
In the paper, "A construction based analysis of child directed speech", (which is from a school of thought that Chomsky was also from) they pretty much say Chomsky was wrong. It is about practice.
I think adults rely too much on conscious recall (what is now being called system one in cognitive science). Adults do not over-learn so they never reach a level of fluency; rather they rely too heavily on effortful recall. So, maybe the issue is not age. Maybe the issue is amount and type of practice.
Taxi drivers can kiss my proverbial. If they were so good at studying and understand learning so much, why did they become a poorly paid temporary delivery man? I would love to tell them, but my Korean is not good enough.  |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
Taxi drivers can kiss my proverbial. If they were so good at studying and understand learning so much, why did they become a poorly paid temporary delivery man? I would love to tell them, but my Korean is not good enough. |
Hehe, please don't go there. A lot of us are college graduates earning a living as baby-sitters.  |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Most lifers don't learn Korean because that has never been their priority. Their priority has been earning and saving money while in Korea. If they put the same number of hours into learning Korean as they would a full time job, they'd probably find themselves making some real progress after several months.
Admittedly, most adult learners can not fully master the sounds of a second language. Tiffany of Girls Generation can speak English with a perfect American accent because she spent part of her growing up years in America. However, you don't need to have a native like accent to be able to communicate in a foreign language. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Question for World Traveler: if you were suddenly whisked off into another timeline where you were part of a family that only spoke to you in their language, after 5 years of this 24/7 exposure do you think you would speak and write their language better or worse than a 5-year-old? There is no internet, English does not exist, no outside exposure to anything else and your former life is gone.
And let's say for the sake of argument that the language they speak is one found on Earth. Korean, Chinese, whatever. In this alternate timeline English has simply never existed. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| after 5 years of this 24/7 exposure do you think you would speak and write their language better or worse than a 5-year-old? |
5 year olds don't begin reading, writing, and speaking at age 0. If they begin reading at age 4, that is exceptionally early. I guess a more fair comparison would be someone who has never spoken another language but then was immersed in it at school between age 5 and 10 (while continuing to speak their native language with their parents at home). That person would become fully bilingual. After five years of study as an adult would I be as good as the ten year old? Probably not. It terms of hearing and pronouncing the sounds, definitely not. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I've read posts on here from lifers (such as edwardcatflap) |
One of the reasons why I don't spend more time learning Korean is that I refuse to acknowledge the fact I am 'a lifer' as you say. One day, sooner rather than later, I will leave here and that thought, plus like another poster mentioned, spending a lot of my free time making extra money, is enough to dissuade me |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| One of the reasons why I don't spend more time learning Korean is that I refuse to acknowledge the fact I am 'a lifer' as you say. |
But you said the reason you are still in Korea is your wife doesn't want to leave Korea. Maybe you will become a lifer. Don't count out the possibility. (I thought that since you have been in Korean for more than ten years and have a Korean spouse you are already a lifer. I didn't know you had plans to leave- plans which may or may not materialize.) |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Language learning and age |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Don't make fun of lifers who have lived in Korea for 20+ years yet still can't speak the language. It's not their fault.
| Quote: |
| Believe it or not, there is a magic bullet for learning a foreign language, and you don't even have to be a genius. The secret? Be younger than about six years old and have adequate exposure. |
| Quote: |
| It’s true, the younger the learner, the better they are at mimicking new sounds and adopting pronunciation. |
| Quote: |
| What’s more, younger learners are more skilled at identifying subtle differences in sounds. |
| Quote: |
| Few linguists would claim that an adult can learn a language as easily as a child. Kids have a device in their brains that are hardwired to learn a language and that facility declines over the ages 6-16 and then disappears entirely. |
| Quote: |
| Children learn languages better than adults because they have better hearing. When a sentence is said at normal speed the words all merge together, like written language with out gaps and punctuation, it takes a trained ear to pick up the different words and it helps if your hearing is top notch. As you get older your hearing fades so learning languages becomes harder. |
| Quote: |
| Our capacity to learn a language changes greatly as we get older, and not for the better. We see this in the families of immigrants whether in this country or ex-pats. The children learn the new language quickly and to a high standard, the adults find it a struggle which requires serious effort for often limited results. |
| Quote: |
| the language I learned as a child (French) has always somehow stuck better with me - even after long periods without using it - than the language I learned as an adolescent and speak most of the time now (German). Kind of a shame that it takes a bit more sustained effort to get languages to stick as you get older. |
| Quote: |
Children are better at language learning than adults. As a matter of fact, they do not learn, but acquire the language subconsciously. They learn the language at the same time as they develop their emotional regulation systems. In other words, they learn the language through perceptual channels that become integrated with the limbic system.
The fact that adults make use of their intelligence to learn a new language is not an advantage in relation to children, who accomplish the same task effortlessly. Adults have the cognitive strategies to start a language journey for which children do not need any strategy at all. If you’re learning Spanish, you’ll have to study the distinction between “ser” and “estar”, “por” and “para”, the subjunctive mood or reflexive verbs. Those are concepts that children understand instinctively without any need for formal instruction. Adults have to make a conscious effort to learn something that children acquire naturally. While a child learns any language instinctively, adults need to turn to their intelligence to learn the rules. |
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All has been refuted countless times. There is absolutely ZERO research that can be reproduced that supports these claims. Actually, most of the research points in the opposite direction: adults are better language learners because they have a greater understanding of grammar, phonetics, methods of study and learning in their L1 which they can transfer to their L2. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Language learning and age |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
| There is absolutely ZERO research that can be reproduced that supports these claims. |
There is "zero" research that can be produced to support this?:
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| the younger the learner, the better they are at mimicking new sounds and adopting pronunciation. |
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| younger learners are more skilled at identifying subtle differences in sounds. |
Are you sure? @.@ |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Younger learners are definitely better at discerning and mimicking new sounds, I don't even see how that is open for debate. That's part of the value of native teachers at the elementary level: taking advantage of this to imprint the correct sounds in their minds, instead of the horrible "I don't know the difference between L and R, F and P, and TH sounds like D" pronunciation of Koreans who learned as adults. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Language learning and age |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| There is absolutely ZERO research that can be reproduced that supports these claims. |
There is "zero" research that can be produced to support this?:
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| the younger the learner, the better they are at mimicking new sounds and adopting pronunciation. |
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| younger learners are more skilled at identifying subtle differences in sounds. |
Are you sure? @.@ |
Study results from where? Please share.
Your entire OP focused on:
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| Children are better at language learning than adults. |
that is an entirely unfounded OPINION.
@FOX
That is also a common misconception. Every time they do those studies, adults actually preform better than children at sound recognition and reproduction with the same amount of dedicated study time.
If anyone who can find a study (not anecdotal commentary and theories) that disproves it, I would love to see it. I scoured ERIC, JSTORE and a few other data bases earlier in the year to try and find someone with zero success. Lots started out w/ that hypothesis, but were unable to prove it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Language learning and age |
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| SeoulNate wrote: |
That is also a common misconception. Every time they do those studies, adults actually preform better than children at sound recognition and reproduction with the same amount of dedicated study time. |
Can you link a few of these studies please? I'm with you on the grammar and general proficiency acquisition, but regarding phonics it is directly and overwhelmingly against my experience, so I'd like to see some serious evidence. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sure, pm me your email address. I'll send you some articles when I get home. Should still have a bunch on my computer |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| after 5 years of this 24/7 exposure do you think you would speak and write their language better or worse than a 5-year-old? |
5 year olds don't begin reading, writing, and speaking at age 0. If they begin reading at age 4, that is exceptionally early. |
Thus making the adult the better language learner. You walked right into that.
Your exceptional under 6 child is still shakily tracing letters while an adult can already read a newspaper.
Don't forget adults want something different out of a language that children do. Perfect native speaker phonemic reproduction is not needed to become the governor of California, perfect understanding and (mostly) flawless grammar is. Any accent that is not overly heavy or awkward is fine. Ban Ki-moon, not fine. Stephen Harper's French, fine. It's also more about taste than anything. A melodic Russian accent comes across as more educated than one from Mississippi, in spite of only the latter being a native speaker. |
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