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A fitting analogy for ESL in Korea
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
19 an hour is still good for that. I don't care if kindy is exhausting. If an advertisement went up here in Canada for BA holders to work in a pre school for $22/hour (gross before taxes) for 4 hours plus 1 hour of prep, recent grads would be all over it.


Don't know about Canada but BA holders in the UK wouldn't be alowed to teach kids alone without education/childcare qualifications. They could be class room assistants on 12k a year, which is less than that advert. So yes WT it's not a bad deal.
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misher



Joined: 14 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:



Don't know about Canada but BA holders in the UK wouldn't be alowed to teach kids alone without education/childcare qualifications. They could be class room assistants on 12k a year, which is less than that advert. So yes WT it's not a bad deal.


I guess that is my point. For what is required (ie nothing, no qualifications, childhood edu certs etc) $19 an hour is still good. In Canada qualifications are needed as well, but if they were magically dropped, many unrelated BA holders would be all over it. It's better than Starbucks or working in a call center for $12 an hour.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess that is my point. For what is required (ie nothing, no qualifications, childhood edu certs etc) $19 an hour is still good. In Canada qualifications are needed as well, but if they were magically dropped, many unrelated BA holders would be all over it. It's better than Starbucks or working in a call center for $12 an hour.


True. However, to be a class room assistant in the UK on 12k a year you wouldn't need a BA. If BAs in Canada would be all over it, I suppose it's just another indication of how non-vocational BAs are becoming more and more meaningless these days.
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archaeologist5



Joined: 25 Dec 2013

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
without education/childcare qualifications

In Canada qualifications are needed as well,


Not to break into your conversation but I really get tired of that word--qualifications.

About 30 years ago, don't ask for specifics, a top university came out with the statement that parents were not qualified to raise children and that childcare should be handled by college educated people

We all laughed at that idea but low and behold most people hand their kids over to some college trained person who has no experience raising kids and let them train their children. From day cares to kindergartens to public schools, children are being trained by those who have no idea except for what they were taught in their classes.

For me, I would prefer to hire someone who loved children or students over those who had their pieces of paper. The former would do their best to learn how to do things right and make sure the children or students received the best care and information.

The latter is too concerned with implementing what they have learned and do not care as much. They demand an adherence to their criteria, not what is right, and get upset when children or students do not live up to their expectations.

The quality of care is found in the former not the latter, though sadly too much importance is placed upon the latter and the children and students suffer the most.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not to break into your conversation but I really get tired of that word--qualifications.


Ok then - in the UK

Primary school teachers would need a BED in primary education or a PCGE. They would start on 21k a year

Childcare workers would need an NQ4 (2 year vocational training qualification) and would start on around 14k.

As you know I think people should do training for teaching jobs, though if we were talking about childcare I kind of agree with you. Child care in the UK is ridiculously expensive and stops many women going back to work. However, if we want to live in a society populated by people like CaptainKorea who believe no expense or effort should be spared by the government to ensure the safety of their children, and are on constant alert for opportunities to sue, this is what we end up with.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Primary school teachers would need a BED in primary education or a PCGE. They would start on 21k a year
http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-ranges
You are speaking in pounds here, not USD? 21k in British money is $35,000. I'm guessing there is a benefits package that goes along this along with regular yearly raises (and job security). Long vacations (the summer, etc.) are probably the reason salaries are not higher than they are. That and the benefits package is worth a lot of money. A one to one comparison of base salaries doesn't capture the whole picture.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

misher wrote:
The people who chose to marry into Korean culture. They will be fine because of government intervention in the market place by keeping F visas value artificially high. If that protectionist mechanism is taken away however, yikes. They may go bonkers by doing the same/similar jobs for the next 30 years and dealing with the same issues over and over korean culture deals them.

It seems like wages for F visa holders are already falling, even with the protectionist mechanism in place (giving them an advantage).

1.Location= Seodaemoon Namgajwa2 dong 5 min WALK from MyungJi Uni (10min bus from hongdae '7612')
2.Salary = 25,000won per hour (depend on your experience and visa type)
3.Teaching time = from 2p.m to 6or 7p.m(4~5ours) 1 or 2 days in a week .
4. Class size: maximum 10 average 7
5. Class type: Elementary and only one class of kinder
6.Vacation: None
7.Housing: None
8.Visa: F2, F6 Only. (Americans or Canadians who are married to a Korean)
Starting time: March


I've seen quite a few 25,000 an hour "F visa only" ads lately. They far outnumber the 50,000 an hour "F visa only" ones (which are becoming rare).
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

World Traveler wrote:
edwardcatflap wrote:
Primary school teachers would need a BED in primary education or a PCGE. They would start on 21k a year
http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-ranges
You are speaking in pounds here, not USD? 21k in British money is $35,000. I'm guessing there is a benefits package that goes along this along with regular yearly raises (and job security). Long vacations (the summer, etc.) are probably the reason salaries are not higher than they are. That and the benefits package is worth a lot of money. A one to one comparison of base salaries doesn't capture the whole picture.


If you want to get rich become a banker or a hooker. People get into teaching to do something meaningful, at least in theory. Plus those are starting salaries and nearly 50% of the country earn less than 14K a year.

Anyway, if you are on an F visa aren't you able to do multiple jobs and privates legally? Surely if you work hard enough you could get close to the 4/5 million threshold. Not bad considering that a) you would't need that many qualifications and b) the average annual yearly wage for the majority of Korean office workers only just breaks 6 million a month.

In my case I know that on a D visa I have been able to earn slightly more than I did on my E2 whilst working part time hours. If it weren't for regulations and class it would be a lot better.
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misher



Joined: 14 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you want to get rich become a banker or a hooker. People get into teaching to do something meaningful, at least in theory. Plus those are starting salaries and nearly 50% of the country earn less than 14K a year.


This is bullshit.

Yes, many get into teaching because they want to give back. However once one becomes a public school teacher, it isn't a bad deal in most of the developed world and certain US States. $80k+ a year with summers off as a tenured public servant by the time you're 35? It's pretty damn good and people know it. There is a reason why in Canada teachers college are bursting at the seams. People know it's a solid upper middle class lifestyle, a lifestyle which is becoming harder to get to. Saying people get into teaching because it isn't about the compensation is just false. It isn't entirely about the compensation but it certainly plays a larger role than most think.

Now about EFL teaching in Korea which is an entirely different animal. The vast majority ARE doing it for the money and to travel. Sure the odd TEFLer may be doing it to give back and because they enjoy teaching Korean kids but come on. Most are here because options at home compensate less and are dead end so they fall into it and get trapped. They then justify their poor decision making by saying "I don't teach for the money" etc. Yeah right buddy.
If someone offered you an actual career you'd take it.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now about EFL teaching in Korea which is an entirely different animal. The vast majority ARE doing it for the money and to travel. Sure the odd TEFLer may be doing it to give back and because they enjoy teaching Korean kids but come on. Most are here because options at home compensate less and are dead end so they fall into it and get trapped. They then justify their poor decision making by saying "I don't teach for the money" etc. Yeah right buddy.
If someone offered you an actual career you'd take it.


He was implying people don't go into TEFL to get rich - which I agree with, and is different from saying people don't go into TEFL for the money. I also agree with you that the vast majority of people teaching in Korea seem to be here primarily for the money. Re teaching in the West, I don't know about Canada but half of all newly qualified teachers in the UK leave the profession in the first 5 years because it's a tough job and they don't think the compensation makes up for it. A lot of the people who stay probably do have a passion for it

Quote:
b) the average annual yearly wage for the majority of Korean office workers only just breaks 6 million a month.



This is even higher than that amount which started the long thread a couple of weeks ago. If by 'office workers' you're including anyone who works in an office, I think you're way out. 6 million a month would be considered a good wage here and in my country (the UK) not an average one.
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World Traveler



Joined: 29 May 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw the ad reposted:

1.Location= Seodaemoon Namgajwa2 dong 5 min WALK from MyungJi Uni (10min bus from hongdae '7612')
2.Salary = 20,000 ~25,000won per hour (depend on your experience and visa type)
3.Teaching time = from 2p.m to 6or 7p.m(4~5ours) 1 or 2 days in a week .
4. Class size: maximum 10 average 7
5. Class type: Elementary and only one class of kinder
6.Vacation: None
7.Housing: None
8.Visa: F2, F6 Only. (Americans or Canadians who are married to Koreans)
Starting time: March


20,000 to 25,000 for a North American F visa holder? @[email protected] Terrible. >_< (Do you think anyone's going to say yes to that?)
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the above advertisement only allows one visa type (F-2/F-6 is the same thing), how can salary vary based on "visa type?"
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
Now about EFL teaching in Korea which is an entirely different animal. The vast majority ARE doing it for the money and to travel. Sure the odd TEFLer may be doing it to give back and because they enjoy teaching Korean kids but come on. Most are here because options at home compensate less and are dead end so they fall into it and get trapped. They then justify their poor decision making by saying "I don't teach for the money" etc. Yeah right buddy.
If someone offered you an actual career you'd take it.


He was implying people don't go into TEFL to get rich - which I agree with, and is different from saying people don't go into TEFL for the money. I also agree with you that the vast majority of people teaching in Korea seem to be here primarily for the money. Re teaching in the West, I don't know about Canada but half of all newly qualified teachers in the UK leave the profession in the first 5 years because it's a tough job and they don't think the compensation makes up for it. A lot of the people who stay probably do have a passion for it

Quote:
b) the average annual yearly wage for the majority of Korean office workers only just breaks 6 million a month.



This is even higher than that amount which started the long thread a couple of weeks ago. If by 'office workers' you're including anyone who works in an office, I think you're way out. 6 million a month would be considered a good wage here and in my country (the UK) not an average one.


I downloaded a table published by the chosun ilbo that detailed the average yearly salaries for employees at major Korean companies. The figures are just basic salaries before tax (I think) that dont take account of bonuses or other benefits.

The highest was 메지온 which I think is a Pharmaceutical company and their average was 1억200만원 per year. However, the vast majority were in the six million range starting at 대응제약 whose average was 6000만원. You have to wait until 9th place KTB 투자증권 for the first company to offer more than 7000만원.

As for the reliability of the figures, I don't know if they are a hundred percent accurate. That being said I think they give a good indication of the ball park figures.

As I said I downloaded the table, but I dont know how to post it, so if you have any ideas let me know.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
downloaded a table published by the chosun ilbo that detailed the average yearly salaries for employees at major Korean companies. The figures are just basic salaries before tax (I think) that dont take account of bonuses or other benefits.

As I said I downloaded the table, but I dont know how to post it, so if you have any ideas let me know.


Ok so it obviously wasn't just a survey of everyone who works in an office
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aq8knyus



Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
downloaded a table published by the chosun ilbo that detailed the average yearly salaries for employees at major Korean companies. The figures are just basic salaries before tax (I think) that dont take account of bonuses or other benefits.

As I said I downloaded the table, but I dont know how to post it, so if you have any ideas let me know.


Ok so it obviously wasn't just a survey of everyone who works in an office


No, not at all, these are all major Korean companies.

I think it highlights that, whilst not a get rich quick scheme, teaching in Korea is a relatively good deal. This is especially true for those on an F series visa.
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