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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| these musicians who could use their power to drop legit panties yet prey on helpless little kids. shameful. it's like the lead singer of lostprophets who got busted for pedophilia recently. |
Wow, I just looked that case up, 1 year old babies, and the moms consenting to it, I had no idea. In high school someone gave me one of their CDs, I thought it was ok, but didn't listen to it a whole lot. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
It's like metal detectors at the airport to prevent guns. Would this have prevented 9/11? Of course not. Can one get past it and blow up an airplane? Of course. |
The hysterical level of security in airports is a terrible idea. Sick of paying for it and spending time going through it for essentially no benefit. It's a proclamation of human stupidity on a massive scale. Intersting that it's the analogy which popped into your head. |
Well maybe, but when it comes to something basic like a metal detector or bomb-sniffing dogs, can you imagine if those didn't exist? Planes would be blowing up left and right. I mean, imagine El-Al not taking any precautions. Before the full body scans, getting onto a plane was no different than walking into a courthouse- Take off your shoes and have your stuff x-rayed. I did it regularly. It took 1 minute. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
It's like metal detectors at the airport to prevent guns. Would this have prevented 9/11? Of course not. Can one get past it and blow up an airplane? Of course. |
The hysterical level of security in airports is a terrible idea. Sick of paying for it and spending time going through it for essentially no benefit. It's a proclamation of human stupidity on a massive scale. Intersting that it's the analogy which popped into your head. |
Well maybe, but when it comes to something basic like a metal detector or bomb-sniffing dogs, can you imagine if those didn't exist? Planes would be blowing up left and right. |
Just like buses and trains? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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I'm for CBCs for ALL people who work with children. That includes not only teachers, but janitors, and security guards. Anyone with convictions of a violent or sexual nature, should be refused hire.
As a parent, I see it as a minimum standard for those that will be in my child's life (when I'm not around). |
Really? Are you for CBCs for Dads who offer to take other kids to football practice, authors who visit schools to talk about their books, volunteers who offer to help out at school events. Ok you've shown what a great father you are and everything with that post but would you be happy seeing the act of parents helping out with school stuff dying out slowly because of the extra hassle and expense? On the basis of a very minute possibility that one of these people is a predatory pedophile. |
Yes, when I did volunteer work in Canadian schools, I got a CBC done. I have no problem with that being a standard.
I think Bondrock said it quite well.
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
Hi Bondrock. The laws may be different in the UK and Canada but I definitely heard a UK author complaining about this very issue.
I was mainly reacting to CC's quote that
'As a parent, I see it as a minimum standard for those that will be in my child's life (when I'm not around).'
Which would include anyone who pokes their head into a school environment and, IMO is way over the top. |
That's your opinion. I'm fine with that. Mine differs. I have no problem asking an author for a CBC in Canada if they are visiting schools. As previously mentioned, IN Canada, they are quite easy to obtain. |
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archaeologist5
Joined: 25 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
I'm for CBCs for ALL people who work with children. That includes not only teachers, but janitors, and security guards. Anyone with convictions of a violent or sexual nature, should be refused hire.
As a parent, I see it as a minimum standard for those that will be in my child's life (when I'm not around). |
This is the type of person I do not respond to. They think their child means they get to trump everyone else's rights/freedoms and that their child is more precious than anyone else. It is very unrealistic and a very dangerous attitude.
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| Well maybe, but when it comes to something basic like a metal detector or bomb-sniffing dogs, can you imagine if those didn't exist? Planes would be blowing up left and right. |
You must be young. There was a time when those things did not exist and planes did not blow up left and right. We had the odd hijacking but no planes being blown out of the skies.
I disagree with those who put their faith in CRCs. It is a false sense of security but knowing the character make-up of this board most would side with a CRC. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| archaeologist5 wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
I'm for CBCs for ALL people who work with children. That includes not only teachers, but janitors, and security guards. Anyone with convictions of a violent or sexual nature, should be refused hire.
As a parent, I see it as a minimum standard for those that will be in my child's life (when I'm not around). |
This is the type of person I do not respond to. They think their child means they get to trump everyone else's rights/freedoms and that their child is more precious than anyone else. It is very unrealistic and a very dangerous attitude. |
You just responded to me. lol
Hmmm… let's see - who should have the right to decide? A tax paying, voting parent? Or… you? A BSing, PHD wannabe?
Many jobs requite CBCs and the like. Does that "trump" their freedoms? Is it strange to have a CBC for a police officer or security guard? How about health checks for medical practitioners? Driving tests for bus drivers? Credit checks for those that deal with $$$$?
Lets face it, there are tons of jobs/careers that require specific credentials. Some academic, some not. It's not "trumping" their rights to have these requirements, nor is it "unrealistic or dangerous" to ask for it.
I'll ask you this, Archie - what right do you have to decide anything on this matter in Korea?
Are you Korean?
Can you vote here?
Do your children attend school here?
I'm guessing none of the above. Yet you seem adamant about pushing YOUR beliefs on Korea/Koreans. Funny - isn't that what you usually criticize Westerners for doing?
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't want my future kid being taught by someone without a background check. It doesn't weed out all of the bad teachers, but it certainly does cull a lot of the bad ones. I'd want the same for everyone's kids, not just my own. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:35 am Post subject: |
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I for one see benefit in society in general moving away from current attitudes towards criminalization. If one is a genuine danger to society, why have they been released from prison? And if one is not a genuine danger to society, why do we continue to persecute them in this fashion? It's a manifestation of the punitive (as opposed to rehabilitative) attitude we have towards criminal justice, and the world (not merely Korea) would be a better place if it were rectified. The difficulty in that, of course, is that it actually requires some genuine compassion directed at a demographic with which it is very difficult to sympathize. And ironically, the punitive character of criminal justice actually reinforces the incentive to endlessly discriminate against the ex-convict, because the system regularly released people who are not necessarily rehabilitated!
To be fair, though, it's not as if this is an issue Korea could tackle on its own, especially through the lens of immigration laws. This was written more in response to domestic requirements for criminal background checks than anything. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think a mark on one's record has to automatically prohibit one from getting work, but certain types of crimes definitely should. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Just like buses and trains? |
Well buses used to be a common target in Israel until they changed their procedures. As for now, I think airplanes would be regarded as a much more high value target and they seem to induce stress in their passengers to a degree that buses and trains do not. Not just talking terrorism here, but general travel as well.
I do think that if you suddenly did away with all of those procedures that the very people who call for their removal would call for their return as you would see a spate of incidents. If I was a terrorist or criminal that would just prove too juicy a target. And I'd hate to think of the combination of gun nut/homie + free airline booze and guns.
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You must be young. There was a time when those things did not exist and planes did not blow up left and right. We had the odd hijacking but no planes being blown out of the skies.
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You also had hostage demands and prisoner releases and so on. It was as much nationalist and many of the movements had socialist sympathies. Now everything has morphed into Islamic Extremism.
Also, that time was referred to as "The Golden Age of Skyjacking". Now is not referred to that. Do we really want a "Second Golden Age of Skyjacking" or "The Golden Age of Airline Bombings"?
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| unrealistic and a very dangerous |
I think that's what I'd describe anyone who doesn't see the usefulness of some very basic safeguards. It's like building a bank without any safeguards, right next to a highway, in the middle of nowhere, and then advertising your security procedures (or lack thereof- "hey no CCTV here!") and then expecting not to get robbed. At some point you have to understand that criminals look for weakness and not having certain measures in place just invites attack. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| I would prefer teachers at my kids school have a background check. It seems normal and even expected for people who will be teaching and responsible for kids all day... |
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archaeologist5
Joined: 25 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| You just responded to me. lol |
Actually I didn't but now I will.
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| Hmmm… let's see - who should have the right to decide? A tax paying, voting parent? Or… you? A BSing, PHD wannabe? |
So then you are okay with a majority of tax paying KOREAN christian citizens voting in the removal of CRCs as a requirement to teach in schools?
What gives YOU the right to dictate to others what should take place over true citizens of this country? Oh and I probably pay as many taxes as you do in this country, so that argument of yours is a wash.
As a parent I would protect my child as well BUT the existence of my child does not grant me or anyone the right to force their views upon others.
You also forget that Korea has laws allowing free speech and I am covered under those laws whether you like it or not. Free speech is not for those who just agree with you.
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| Is it strange to have a CBC for a police officer or security guard? How about health checks for medical practitioners? Driving tests for bus drivers? Credit checks for those that deal with $$$$? |
To tell you the truth yes it is strange because of how it is implemented. First, it deprives people of a second chance. Second, CRCs and credit reports do not tell the whole story and people are being judged for deeds they can't change. Third, a couple of your examples are absurd and are apples to the CRC orange.
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| Lets face it, there are tons of jobs/careers that require specific credentials. |
You are going to the absurd to protect your defenseless point. A CRC cannot provide any security that a driving test can. It only displays historical behavior not the current disposition of a person.
It is adding punishment to people when they have already paid for their crimes which makes CRCs unfair, unjust and wrong.
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I'll ask you this, Archie - what right do you have to decide anything on this matter in Korea?
I probably have as much as you do but then I do not self-appoint myself to positions I am not entitled to like you do.
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archaeologist5
Joined: 25 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I do think that if you suddenly did away with all of those procedures that the very people who call for their removal would call for their return as you would see a spate of incidents. If I was a terrorist or criminal that would just prove too juicy a target. And I'd hate to think of the combination of gun nut/homie + free airline booze and guns.
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I think you are using an apple to talk about oranges. There is a difference between that type of security and a CRC. A CRC has no power or authority to stop a person from committing a crime nor can it guarantee that submitting one will stop a person from going off the rails.
You are putting your faith in a piece of paper that has no cognitive ability to even detect a potential crime in process. You all complain about contracts here, yet they are mere pieces of paper which do not stop violations from either party.
Sometimes the courts enforce them and sometimes not, so there is no guarantee a contract will stop those violations from taking place. You cannot say they have cut violations down because we do not know what is in the mind of the people signing them. The same argument applies to CRCs. We do not know if they cut out bad teachers or not because we only know of those who commit illegal acts after submitting them.
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| You also had hostage demands and prisoner releases and so on. It was as much nationalist and many of the movements had socialist sympathies. Now everything has morphed into Islamic Extremism. |
But again a CRC would not stop such behavior nor does it stop people who have submitted one from being bribe, extorted, coerced into allowing or committing a crime.
You cannot use real security measures and say a CRC is on par or even close to those. Since the CRC requirement has been instituted I know of at least two or three incidents of possible pedophilia in Korean schools committed by westerners.
CRCs do NOT weed people out. They allow the same people to enter the schools undetected. They also keep good people out of he schools who have learned from their past mistakes and have changed their lives for the better. It is unfair and unjust to continually punish them for mistakes they cannot change.
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| Now is not referred to that. Do we really want a "Second Golden Age of Skyjacking" or "The Golden Age of Airline Bombings"? |
Moot. Wanting or not wanting something doesn't mean it will or will not take place.
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| I think that's what I'd describe anyone who doesn't see the usefulness of some very basic safeguards. It's like building a bank without any safeguards, right next to a highway, in the middle of nowhere, and then advertising your security procedures (or lack thereof- "hey no CCTV here!") and then expecting not to get robbed. At some point you have to understand that criminals look for weakness and not having certain measures in place just invites attack. |
Again a wrong argument by a wrong comparison. Lack of a cctv doesn't not remove security guards, eye witnesses, fingerprints, or mistakes made by the robbers.
You seem to equate a CRC with security and they two are NOT the same.
I am merely pointing out the futility of your faith in a piece of paper. It does NOT do the job you think and IF I were to bring in western examples you would be appalled at how many offenders are allowed in the western school system because they have clean CRCs.
New York City used to keep a special room for all those dangerous teachers (mentally and physically) they could not fire yet were harmful to students. They got hired via clean CRCs.
Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said--the more you try to protect freedom the more you lose it? You are not going to stop crime from taking place without losing all your freedoms and rights.
I will offer North Korea as an example to support that point. |
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knee-highs
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Location: yes
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| archaeologist5 wrote: |
We just need a better system than a blind acceptance of CRCs |
Archie, you have said many times that foreigners should not tell Koreans how to run their country. Yet, on the previous page you include yourself among the decision makers "we".
Also, you out and out insult the Korean populace by claiming they are using "blind acceptance." This expression blind acceptance is no different than calling someone stupid.
I don't think the Koreans are blind or stupid. They ask for a CBC / CRC and they have that right. You want a second chance? Fine, in your own country you might get one. But why should you get a second chance in a country where you are not a citizen? Koreans don't have the time to do extensive and thorough backgrounds on foreign teachers to weigh the pros and cons of whether someone has or has not "changed". So, they have a simple and effective system to weed out undesirables. Do they potentially miss some possible good teachers. Sure, they do. But they weed out a lot more bad teachers by asking for criminal checks and denying a visa to any criminal. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| archaeologist5 wrote: |
| So then you are okay with a majority of tax paying KOREAN christian citizens voting in the removal of CRCs as a requirement to teach in schools? |
The majority of Koreans are not Christians. Not sure why you bothered to put that in there. But if the majority of Koreans vote to pass a law, then the minority has to accept, right? accept, or move on.
See, the thing is, as a PR here, I can vote - and have. I get to vote on Educational policies by voting for the person that I think will best represent my wishes.
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| What gives YOU the right to dictate to others what should take place over true citizens of this country? Oh and I probably pay as many taxes as you do in this country, so that argument of yours is a wash. |
You may pay as many taxes as I do… who knows. But I'm guessing you don't vote. Me voting here - gives me that right. My visa gives me the right to vote here - according to Korean law.
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| As a parent I would protect my child as well BUT the existence of my child does not grant me or anyone the right to force their views upon others. |
So, no one is allowed to force any view or law on anyone else? You live in a very strange place.
When I go outside, I see all sorts of rules being enforced all over the place. If you don't like the laws of Korea… well, you know...
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| You also forget that Korea has laws allowing free speech and I am covered under those laws whether you like it or not. Free speech is not for those who just agree with you. |
Oh, I get it. You like laws that allow you to spout off, but not ones that would check to see if you're a criminal.
Got 'cha!
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| Is it strange to have a CBC for a police officer or security guard? How about health checks for medical practitioners? Driving tests for bus drivers? Credit checks for those that deal with $$$$? |
To tell you the truth yes it is strange because of how it is implemented. First, it deprives people of a second chance. Second, CRCs and credit reports do not tell the whole story and people are being judged for deeds they can't change. Third, a couple of your examples are absurd and are apples to the CRC orange. |
That type of half-baked arguing may fly for the Korea Times, but not here. First - it does not. People can get their records expunged in their home countries. Second - welcome to the real world. People get judged all the time. Third, keep your lame dietary needs out of this discussion.
Again though, and others are calling you on this - WHO ARE YOU to decide Korean laws? You routinely bash foreigners here for doing the exact same thing you're pontificating on.  |
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