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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: This outta be good for a row- 30 Most Innovative Countries |
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http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2014-01-22/30-most-innovative-countries.html#slide32
It ranks SK number one, but I think Taiwan was really hurt by the lack of data for manufacturing capability as it seems that if it had had that, it would have beat out SK. I question the patent number as well. Are those international patents? And are all patents equal?
Anyways, I'm sure this will be good for at least 5 pages of bomb-throwing. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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anyone who knows anything about the world wouldn't be surprised by this list. as well, this isn't some random highschool publication. bloomberg analytics aren't exactly a bunch of unqualified people sitting around making up random data.
i was a bit surprised by canada and luxembourg being as high as they were though. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Innovation: a new idea, device, or method
: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods
Keyword: NEW
Korea has some innovations, but is better at borrowing, stealing, copying, and these are common and accepted practices within the culture.
The other problem is, those measures are problematic if measuring innovation. They are individual measures, but they don't automatically lead to level of innovation.
Example: R & D Intensity: spending a lot on R & D doesn't automatically lead to innovative products, especially if it mostly involves benchmarking and copying other things.
A company could score well on all those measures, and still not bring forth a single innovative product.
A better measure might be to count the number of novel, new, unique products a country has ever produced. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: This outta be good for a row- 30 Most Innovative Countri |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Anyways, I'm sure this will be good for at least 5 pages of bomb-throwing. |
Not just some firebombing. Somebody's gonna drop the atomic bomb on this thread. Most likely a mod. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
Innovation: a new idea, device, or method
: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods
Keyword: NEW
Korea has some innovations, but is better at borrowing, stealing, copying, and these are common and accepted practices within the culture. |
It's true that they borrow from other cultures, but if they borrow from another culture and then refine, improve, or alter what they've borrowed in some way, that's still innovative. For most of Korea's history it seems like they've followed this pattern, and in modern times it seems to be working really well for them. Sure, Americans and other Westerners are less likely to respect the kind of minor refinements and alterations which Koreans focus on, having been raised to be impressed by sweeping new ideas and pure novelty, but they still ultimately benefit from Korean-style innovation, which is why they buy Korean goods in the first place.
| Mix1 wrote: |
| A better measure might be to count the number of novel, new, unique products a country has ever produced. |
Okay, but that's rigging the game against the Korean innovational strategy from the very start, so of course it's no surprise that Korea won't do very well under such an approach. The average person benefits from both novel, new, unique products and refinements of existing products, so why should he applaud one and scorn the other? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
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salutbonjour
Joined: 22 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| All the metrics are those that Korea does well, so I'm not surprised by the rankings. If there was anything about start-ups, fresh graduate starting tech companies or anything that isn't related to the drain of talent towards the chaebols, then Korea would not be first. |
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salutbonjour
Joined: 22 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
Regardless of how innovative Korea is or isn't, most science Nobel prizes are for past work which has had a significant impact. 2013 physics prize was awarded to Peter Higgs for theory he formulated in the 60's. It is thus a poor indicator for current innovation levels.
Second, Nobel awards only one person and for things that are unrelated to practical innovation. I've never seen string theory being applied to anything but doing more experiments, no offense to Dr. Higgs who is by all metrics an amazing researchers. |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
Simple, if Steven Hawking can't win one, what do you expect Koreans to do? 
Anyway, you gotta read between the lines. What matters is: NOT who is No 1, but USA is not on top.
Motivations are:
1. Get more students to take up Science/Engineering courses.
2. Get the reliegious Right wingnuts to bugger off and let scientists/inventors to do their work
3. Lose the policy/practice that only only research worthy ideas are things that'll make enormous profits in the short-term
However, since USA is more concerned with denying food to the starving citizens/defunding ObamaCare/Shutting down the Federal Government, &tc I doubt this study will remain in the news past this cycle.
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mayorhaggar
Joined: 01 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
Innovation: a new idea, device, or method
: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods
Keyword: NEW
Korea has some innovations, but is better at borrowing, stealing, copying, and these are common and accepted practices within the culture.
The other problem is, those measures are problematic if measuring innovation. They are individual measures, but they don't automatically lead to level of innovation. |
Asian companies in general are like this...people working there are basically unable to come up with their own ideas. If a low-ranked employee comes up with a worthy new idea on their own, they are basically saying that they are smarter and better at their jobs than their superiors. And the higher-ups at the company are too removed from the R&D cycle to provide any input. It's much easier for the rank and file employees to copy something from another company, try to tweak and improve it, then submit it to the superiors for approval.
There is no innovation, just scared employees scurrying around with their heads down trying to avoid the wrath of the ajeossis who run their lives. Japan and China are pretty similar. Japan at least has more of a tolerance for eccentric prodigy types, but they still have too much deference towards elders, and too much preference for unproductive overwork.
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Tsao, an American, was hit with a few barriers when he started working in China. Language barriers aside, there were also cultural difficulties. The issues of interpersonal relationships were more pronounced in China, said Tsao. These issues made it harder to get work done—because employees are so concerned with image, they tend to provide management with lots of undeserved deference. Tsao said it also created issues with self starters, as employees wouldn't start projects by themselves in fear of showing "disrespect" to their bosses or "losing face" when they get their project canceled.
"The boss is always right, so do exactly what he/she asks; this naturally leads to hierarchical management even when you don't want it," said Tsao. "No one ever gives suggestions or feedback to higher ups without having a good established relationship, and when they do so, they do it as diplomatically as possible (or even lie) so as not to lose face for either themselves or their boss." |
http://kotaku.com/the-future-of-gaming-in-china-according-to-an-industry-1425638334 |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| salutbonjour wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
Regardless of how innovative Korea is or isn't, most science Nobel prizes are for past work which has had a significant impact. 2013 physics prize was awarded to Peter Higgs for theory he formulated in the 60's. It is thus a poor indicator for current innovation levels.
Second, Nobel awards only one person and for things that are unrelated to practical innovation. I've never seen string theory being applied to anything but doing more experiments, no offense to Dr. Higgs who is by all metrics an amazing researchers. |
(1) Some Nobel Prizes have indeed been rewarded for research which has had or has the potential for practical applications. For example, the 2010 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded for research on graphene, a material which is likely in the relatively near future to have a tremendous impact in terms of more advanced electronics and nanotechnology. Also, the 2009 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded "for groundbreaking achievements concerning the transmission of light in fibers for optical communication" and "for the invention of an imaging semiconductor circuit – the CCD sensor".
(2) Dr. Higgs is not a string theorist, and the Higgs' Boson is NOT predicated on string theory.
Clearly, you need to check your facts before you spout off your biased opinion. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| andrewchon wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
Simple, if Steven Hawking can't win one, what do you expect Koreans to do?
Anyway, you gotta read between the lines. What matters is: NOT who is No 1, but USA is not on top.
Motivations are:
1. Get more students to take up Science/Engineering courses.
2. Get the reliegious Right wingnuts to bugger off and let scientists/inventors to do their work
3. Lose the policy/practice that only only research worthy ideas are things that'll make enormous profits in the short-term
However, since USA is more concerned with denying food to the starving citizens/defunding ObamaCare/Shutting down the Federal Government, &tc I doubt this study will remain in the news past this cycle.
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Actually, the reason Stephen Hawking has not won a Nobel Prize in Physics is because there has not yet been any conceived way of experimentally verifying his theories. There must be solid experimental verification for a theory before the theorist can have a chance to earn the prize. So, without someone finding a nearby black hole where there might be a chance to send a probe to measure Hawking radiation, he will not get a chance to earn it. |
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salutbonjour
Joined: 22 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| salutbonjour wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
Regardless of how innovative Korea is or isn't, most science Nobel prizes are for past work which has had a significant impact. 2013 physics prize was awarded to Peter Higgs for theory he formulated in the 60's. It is thus a poor indicator for current innovation levels.
Second, Nobel awards only one person and for things that are unrelated to practical innovation. I've never seen string theory being applied to anything but doing more experiments, no offense to Dr. Higgs who is by all metrics an amazing researchers. |
(1) Some Nobel Prizes have indeed been rewarded for research which has had or has the potential for practical applications. For example, the 2010 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded for research on graphene, a material which is likely in the relatively near future to have a tremendous impact in terms of more advanced electronics and nanotechnology. Also, the 2009 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded "for groundbreaking achievements concerning the transmission of light in fibers for optical communication" and "for the invention of an imaging semiconductor circuit – the CCD sensor".
(2) Dr. Higgs is not a string theorist, and the Higgs' Boson is NOT predicated on string theory.
Clearly, you need to check your facts before you spout off your biased opinion. |
You are clearly the king of wikipedia.
My opinion remains that Nobel prizes are very prestigious awards, but that they are ultimately a poor marker of a country's innovation.
Feel free to make an argument for the opposite rather than fact-checking tangentially related argumentative points. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973 for his innovative work in making sure peace would be delayed as long as possible. |
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