Korean Job Discussion Forums

[GENO123]

Quote:

GENO, ed, and swash -- you guys are starting to sound like nothing but trolls. You ask for evidence of good salaries, short hours, long vacations, and comfortable working conditions, and when people like PRagic offer up their own anecdotes and those of colleagues/acquaintances, you dismiss it outright

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The king of trolls is also the king of University informericals

How about details oh when I put them up no response.


At the top 40-50 universities" You can more or less sum it up this way : (e.g., actual working hours always being longer, sudden firings being common, salaries being low, no respect given to foreign faculty, etc.

UNIVERSITY CONDITIONS WITHOUT THE SMOKE AND MIRRORS

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=233809&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Quote:

Where is YOUR evidence of all these terrible conditions at the top 40-50 universities? You have none. Anything you might think you have comes from anecdotes, as well. There are A LOT of people with good uni gigs (yes, even in those top 40-50 schools!) in Korea, but you guys just keep telling yourselves whatever you need to in order to feel good about your crappy working lives

THREAD ABOUT FIRINGS

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2957277&highlight=#2957277





Do you want names so you can identify individuals and report them? I am more than sure you would not be above that.


QUOTE FROM ANOTHER POSTER ON THIS THREAD

Quote:

40-42 million a year for two 16 week semesters, . They also offer overtime at 40K/hr. Not terrible. [b]They hire often and prune the dead wood[/i],...

Hire often and and prune the dead wood for 41 - 44 million before any and all deductions doesn't sound like a particularly good job. So there you go.

Remember if a hogwon that paid 2.3 claimed that they pay 3.0 because they pay housing airfare and severence they would get flamed for it

Quote:

This thread, like the bulk of what is posted on Dave's, is chock full of idiotic misinformation. Anecdotal evidence and hearsay is all you're going to get from any question, so you'd best be prepared to sift through the garbage. J7

The greatests idiotic info is what the guy who signs his posts with J7 writes - actually it isn't idiotic at all, rather it is misleading and infact sinister . Remember never forget to sign your posts as J7 That shows you are an elite professional. By the way mr elite professional do you not correct essays or do you put in the time which is it? One or the other here.

[swashbuckler]

[GENO123]

swashbuckler

Hire often and and prune the dead wood for 41 - 44 million before ANY and ALL deductions (remember also THE SKY IS THE LIMIT with unpaid extra work) doesn't sound like a particularly good job at all . How is that good conditions?

REMEMBER : PRUNE THE DEAD WOOD. I didn't start that quote but my oppenent disclosed that fact. Which makes all the difference.

It is not like teachers are getting a lot after deductions for " hire often and prune the dead wood"


Remember if a hogwon that paid 2.3 claimed that they pay 3.0 because they pay housing. airfare .and severence they would get flamed for it .


Work at university and take the TOEFL to prove yourself for stupid money.

[edwardcatflap]

[PRagic]

Well, like you I don't work in the TESL field. Originally, I offered that 5 million/month for a 12 hour sched because I personally knew people making that much back when I WAS teaching English in large university programs.

But I took the comments on the board to heart, thinking, sure, maybe my information is outdated and, given changes in the industry that perhaps I wasn't privy to, incorrect. I asked some friends on Friday and they told me that, yes, it is indeed possible to make 5 million/month on a standard schedule (at their schools it's 12 hours). In fact, they gave me examples. And, yes, the caveat was that you'd have to be at the same place for a long, long time. Question asked, question answered. Believe me or not, it's no skin off my back.

No, I won't relate information on specific schools. One drawback to the field, and a correct one that has been highlighted on this thread, is that there is indeed a tendency to shake things up, and often to the disadvantage of the teachers; Konkuk did a massive clearing many moons ago, as did SNU and Korea U. Who knows who's reading what board where?

Still, I'm facinated by the fact that the conversation had to digress to this point to be frank. Obviously, as a previous poster related, there are a lot of people doing quite well at university jobs. Some of them stick to the knitting and work only in-house, and others play outside of the sand box. Regardless, the better jobs do provide the 2-2.5 months of paid break during the summer and winter, and generally don't force schedules over 15 contact hours.

Are ALL university jobs great? Obviously not, but I can tell you as a tenure track prof that jobs in academe are rarely created equal no matter the degree level, dicipline, or time in service. You often have to pay your dues, get experience, upgrade your credentials, and have a proven track record to move up the feed chain or, given that TESL jobs at the larger schools are not unilaterally perceived as being the best, to get your pick of the jobs that ARE good regardless of location.

Will you be doing prep and grading associated with your 12 hour (or 15 hour..or whatever) teaching sched? Duh. Why bother even stating the obvious. I don't have a clause in my conctract that says my salary ONLY covers my contact hours over the course of a semester; that would be ludicrous. Yes, it is good to know what your work load will entail, but suggesting that universities are somehow clouding over reality by not telling you that you'll be grading as part of your duties is, well, kind of funny.

It will all boil down to what job fits what person best, and that's largely a personal choice. Someone threw out the remarkable pay that can be had in the Middle East. Great, but personally, I never would have bothered even looking at them. That's definitely not somewhere I'd like to hang my hat, and I sure as hell wouldn't ever take my family. I do have friends who have changed things up a bit and done a year or two over there, but they've all returned to teaching here or have taken positions back in N. America. None have anything good to say about the experience itself, but, hey, maybe that's why they didn't stay. Makes sense.

Can you have a pretty nice life doing the TESL thing here in Korea? Sure. Will it be smooth sailing? Nope. Will you probably have to jocky around to find new jobs every few years? Probably, but not always. Will you, as an MA holder, hold sway over a program or work conditions? Nope, not in this hierarchal society. All I know is that my buddies have pretty nice lives; they bank, they invest consistently in their home countries (stocks and/or real estate), they never work Fridays, they take uber paid vacations in great locations, and they by-and-large don't get too stressed out over work.

So why the tirade? Yes, you will teach. Yes, you will prep. Yes, you will grade. You're a teacher, after all. Your contract will say that you will be paid X amount per month, and you should know as a professional teacher that all of the above factor into that amount. Period. No mystery, no conspiracty.

And you should know as well that a LOT of people want these jobs so there's competition. This competition will allow employers to rework things in their favor up to the point when people no longer want to work for said conditions. Welcome to the real world. Find a place that probably won't do this to you, keep upgrading your credentials so that they want to keep you, and be proactive. It's not rocket science, it's a job market.

[swashbuckler]

yawn.more of the same horseshit...and i usually make 9 million a month and own a hagwon...see how easy that was?

oh, if you were directing that grading commet at me, obviously there's a huge amount of difference in the TYPE of grading one is responsible for and time spent outside of clas...for example at sunggyunwan where they make you teach entire semester of writing classes and then another semester of "presentation" classes (Im pretty sure SNU is simiar)...there would obviously be signicantly more grading time involved (essays) then just teaching some conversation 101class with interchange or whatever..as someone who claims to have taught esl before that should have been blatantly obvious..just sayin'!

[PRagic]

Like I said, believe me or not, no skin off my back. I'll try not to regress into the use of vulgarities to make my point, though. To each their own.

And guess that's why I specifically said it's always good to know what your workload will be like going in. Just sayin....

Personally, I don't CARE how much anyone makes teaching English at U here. This whole conversation started because U positions, specifically their pay and employment terms, were being so haphazardly denigraded.

IF someone doesn't want to work at a university, then they shouldn't. Simple enough. But with the number of people getting their MAs and standing in line to get these jobs, even intuitively something must be comparatively better in dem dar waters.

[Chaucer]

PRagic--I don't think there's anything you can say to these guys. You've laid it out there, you've given anecdotal evidence (while quite rightly withholding specific detail), you've made your caveats, and you've been subject to screed. I agree with everything you say. I think anyone rational would, but this thread has gone into the rabbit hole.

[edwardcatflap]

[GENO123]

[PRagic]

Funny, no, no professional sports teams, just pseudo responsible adults with savings and investment goals that they stick to. And you're again assuming that the only income being generated comes from the university.

Stocks, or, more specifically, mutual funds. More than a couple of people on that route, including us. When I was teaching English at university, we bought our land over here, too, and a couple we are quite good friends with has been buying real estate back in N. America regularly over the past 10+ years. They're both university instructors and they also have a vacation home in S.E. Asia. Go ahead, call bs again...seems to be a revolving door. Anyone who knows me knows I wouldn't waste my time or the time of those on the boards with bs stories, though. Once more, no skin off my back if you don't want to believe me.

And I don't understand the whole housing included argument. So if a university offers a housing allowance or free (or highly subsidised) housing, that shouldn't be included either? After all, you're DEDUCTING a given amount in your formula under the assumption that housing or an allowance isn't included.

Again, airfare for long-termers isn't even factored in any more.

BUT the main point is that many find U jobs satisfactory, or at least more satisfactory than other options, and there is therefore a degree of flux associated with the market. I freely admitted that it wouldn't be a smooth ride because of this, and that the best one can do is simply lock onto a job that probably (PROBABLY) won't 'trim the dead wood'.

It's a great service to get people to go into U jobs with their eyes wide open, including the risks associated with pursuing longevity and the possibility, at least at some schools, of getting some extra work dumped into your lap. However, to continually denigrate the potential one may have should they get a decent job and hang onto it, particularly in the face of stories to the contrary, seems a bit much.

Is it an offensive concept if people are making some money (in-house or out), saving, investing, and traveling, not to mention enjoying their lives? Personally, I enjoy success stories. Again, to each their own.

[GENO123]

[GENO123]

[PRagic]

So did anyone ever provide a salary range for either university in response to the OP's request?

[Hatcher]

For the record, there is a job at SNU in the ELI where it is possible to make over 5 mil/mo. If you are the head teacher, you get lots of extra private classes on campus and it adds up quick. But you are working over 12 hrs a week.

Other than that, I dont know of any that pay over 3.5 mil/mo. And I am quite familiar with most.

FWIW, SNU is not a good place to work. And if you do work there, you will lose any hope you have for Korea. I have Hongik near the top as they allow E2 visas to have extra jobs.

One teacher at SNU was being stalked by his neighbor. The stalker was calling SNU 10 times a day threatening to write "bad things in the media" if they didnt fire him. SNU was worried the guy would put something in the media and even if they sued, they wouldnt "get their image back". So they called their lawyer and found some loophole to fire him. He was near the end of his contract so it didnt matter much.

The same thing happened two months later to another teacher but SNU stood by him that time.