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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
I am a parent.
I'm sure there would be plenty of other places to have a cool drink. The places banning children are trying to provide a certain type of atmosphere and experience for their patrons which young children disrupt. I don't think you have to worry about Dunkin Donuts or the like banning kids. |
I was just visiting a bud out in Gimpo the other day. New area. Lots being built, but not a lot finished. If the ONE coffee shop in that area decided to go that route, I'd had troubles. You can't be sure on there always being another shop near by.
As to creating a specific atmosphere, again - ban the behavior. My child does not scream in coffee shops. she does not run around and harass others. So why should she be banned for simply sitting there quietly flipping through photos on my phone?
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| I think you're way off base when you accuse posters of disliking kids. They are merely recognizing there's a time and place for everything and a quiet coffee shop where people go to relax, read, study, work and wind down is not the place for out of control kids. |
Ot of control kids - sure! Kids in general... um, no. A coffee shop or restaurant is a fine place for kids. They have comfy chairs, and serve hot chocolate!! 
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As for planes, I realize families have to travel for many good reasons and it can be tough on babies. however, you do get on a flight every once in a while where the baby cries from beginning to end and you wonder what's up.
Wouldn't a sip of benadryl or tow go a long way in such a situation? |
I don't recall drugging my kid. I remember buying the stuff, but never saw the need. I thick that if you're prepared as a parent, it really is rarely an issue. Prior to flying, I always prepare my kid for what to expect. We live pretty high up, so we practice clearing our ears in the elevator (for example).
There seems to be a lot of mixing up between behaviors and kids in general. Almost every time I see someone mention kids' actions, it's tagged with crazy or out of control. And again I come back to my experiences here - where I have seen many ppl cause disturbances here - and a large portion of them are adults (hell, let's just put it out there and say - adult, drunk males).
I fail to see why it's so hard to ban or punish the action. That's been the policy of restaurants for ages back home, and it seems to have worked out just fine. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I am a parent.
I'm sure there would be plenty of other places to have a cool drink. The places banning children are trying to provide a certain type of atmosphere and experience for their patrons which young children disrupt. I don't think you have to worry about Dunkin Donuts or the like banning kids. |
I was just visiting a bud out in Gimpo the other day. New area. Lots being built, but not a lot finished. If the ONE coffee shop in that area decided to go that route, I'd had troubles. You can't be sure on there always being another shop near by.
As to creating a specific atmosphere, again - ban the behavior. My child does not scream in coffee shops. she does not run around and harass others. So why should she be banned for simply sitting there quietly flipping through photos on my phone?
| Quote: |
| I think you're way off base when you accuse posters of disliking kids. They are merely recognizing there's a time and place for everything and a quiet coffee shop where people go to relax, read, study, work and wind down is not the place for out of control kids. |
Ot of control kids - sure! Kids in general... um, no. A coffee shop or restaurant is a fine place for kids. They have comfy chairs, and serve hot chocolate!!
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As for planes, I realize families have to travel for many good reasons and it can be tough on babies. however, you do get on a flight every once in a while where the baby cries from beginning to end and you wonder what's up.
Wouldn't a sip of benadryl or tow go a long way in such a situation? |
I don't recall drugging my kid. I remember buying the stuff, but never saw the need. I thick that if you're prepared as a parent, it really is rarely an issue. Prior to flying, I always prepare my kid for what to expect. We live pretty high up, so we practice clearing our ears in the elevator (for example).
There seems to be a lot of mixing up between behaviors and kids in general. Almost every time I see someone mention kids' actions, it's tagged with crazy or out of control. And again I come back to my experiences here - where I have seen many ppl cause disturbances here - and a large portion of them are adults (hell, let's just put it out there and say - adult, drunk males).
I fail to see why it's so hard to ban or punish the action. That's been the policy of restaurants for ages back home, and it seems to have worked out just fine. |
Back home isn't Korea.
I can't really answer to your ifs and don't see the need.
The difference between drunks and children is drunks can be kicked out and everyone understands. Children on the other hand enjoy a different status in Korea, one in which anything they do seems to be OK, and thus they and their parents and other defenders are more difficult for business owners to deal with.
Also, "creating a disturbance" is not what we're talking about here. it's disturbing others and creating potentially dangerous situations. If there's any "mixing up" about behavior, I think it's on your end.
It's great that your child is so well behaved. Unfortunately, such a child is exceptional in Korea. Yes, yes, yes, I know, all the children you know are just as well-behaved. I wished I lived in Lake Woebegone-dong, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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WTF, man. We're having a decent discussion, and then you gotta go off the deep end. You need to chill with that internet bravado.
"Causing a disturbance" is simply disturbing others. Whether it's screaming because you're drunk, or screaming because someone took your toy away, it's still disturbing others. There's no mixing up on my end. If you're disturbing those around you, I think you need to be warned by the staff, and if it continues, asked to leave.
This little diddy
| Quote: |
| Yes, yes, yes, I know, all the children you know are just as well-behaved. I wished I lived in Lake Woebegone-dong, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average. |
Makes absolutely no sense and really does nothing for the discussion. Ive said a number of times in this thread that I've seen misbehaving children here... but to add to that, I also saw it "back home". Is there a difference? Sure. Parents of under 12s here are more likely to let them run amuck. That said, I've also called them on it before, and got no argument in return.  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
WTF, man. We're having a decent discussion, and then you gotta go off the deep end. You need to chill with that internet bravado.
"Causing a disturbance" is simply disturbing others. Whether it's screaming because you're drunk, or screaming because someone took your toy away, it's still disturbing others. There's no mixing up on my end. If you're disturbing those around you, I think you need to be warned by the staff, and if it continues, asked to leave.
This little diddy
| Quote: |
| Yes, yes, yes, I know, all the children you know are just as well-behaved. I wished I lived in Lake Woebegone-dong, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average. |
Makes absolutely no sense and really does nothing for the discussion. Ive said a number of times in this thread that I've seen misbehaving children here... but to add to that, I also saw it "back home". Is there a difference? Sure. Parents of under 12s here are more likely to let them run amuck. That said, I've also called them on it before, and got no argument in return. |
So every time a child is causing a disturbance, one is supposed to seek out their parent and ask them to rein in their kid? That's where the pragmatic comes in.
As for "back home," I have rarely witnessed children behaving the way they do in Korea in public. The grocery stores don't resemble playgrounds, restaurants and coffee shops don't feature kids running from table to table bothering patrons or in and out and in and out the door or putting their hands all over the bakery goods on display and so on. Museums don't have guard rails in front of every exhibit and guards frequently admonishing children.
As I said, in a humorous spirit that you seem unable to catch, as with the Benadryl, you seem to live in a different Korea and a different "back home" than I do. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yup, if a kid is acting out, I either tell the kid to stop, or tell their parent to rein them in. The same thing I would do back in Canada. I really don't act any different here in that regard.
As for grocery stores back home - I worked in them for 10+ years. Yeah, you may not have seen it, but there were tons of times kids would get out of hand... and it took a staff member to tell them to stop, and to go find their parents. It really isn't that out of the ordinary type of thing.
As for where I live, I live in Mapo, in Seoul. Lived here for years. If you ever have any doubts as to who or what I am, I'm always willing to meet in person - heck, we could even try to find an adults only coffee shop. lol |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The whole "ban the behavior" thing would make sense if offenders were the exception, and be both inefficient and vexing if offenders were the rule. But if offenders were the exception, it's hard to see why a business owner would want to lay a blanket ban in the first place, isn't it? It's owners serially fed up with what they see as bad behavior among children being the norm which will be inclined to institute blanket bans, and I don't see why it's fair to expect them to go through the daily pains of ban-conversations for the sake of what is -- in their experience, anyway -- the rare well-behaved child. Banning someone on an individual level essentially requires engaging in a face to face discussion with them, one in which they will very possibly grow angry or offended, as you are criticizing them directly. Few people would want to go through such an unpleasant experience with any regularly. If it's once in a blue moon that you have to ban someone, well, maybe that wouldn't be such a big deal, but I doubt any owner who experienced problematic behavior that rarely would be among those instituting such a ban in the first place. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Are you saying that bad behavior by children is the majority? That it's the vast majority even?
That's a pretty bold claim, if it is actually what you are saying.
I have an Emart right across from my place. Because of my odd diet, I go there 3-4 times a week. I see children there each visit, yet it's a rarity to see something disturbing - as in, disturbing me. Sure, I see the occasional kid crying, or an old man chowing down on free samples... but again, that's the odd time out. It's often enough for me to notice it and be bothered by it, but I'd hardly say it's close to "most". It's the exception.
So, while a loud kid screaming in a restaurant can really grate on us, and it's easy to think that they are the "rule rather than the exception", chances are you've sat along families where the kids were just eating - and it didn't stand out to you ... because it shouldn't - that's just normal activity.
So yes, even though we can see this sort of "disturbing" action around us, it does not necessarily mean it is the "norm". |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Kids will be kids. Of course they are going to want to run around - no matter what country you are in. It's up to the parents to control them. Maybe times have changed but my mother never tolerated that shit in public.
The lack of parenting skills in Korea is the issue. Maybe some form of education is the answer. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Are you saying that bad behavior by children is the majority? That it's the vast majority even? |
No, I'm suggesting that any restaurant or cafe owner willing to ban an entire class of customer from his restaurant, at cost to his business, must see it as sufficiently common-place that such a sacrifice is worth it. This is why I qualified with the phrase "in their experience, anyway" after all. How children all over the world behave isn't really relevant to any particular business owner's experience. For a person whose primary concern vis a vis his establishment is to make money to say, "You know, these customers simply aren't worth the money," surely takes a non-trivial level of grief.
Another problem with your proposed system is the fact that bans do nothing to resolve the problem of problem customers who come for the first time and would otherwise never come again. Koreans like to travel, and plenty of places are going to have frequent "one stop" customers. People traveling with children are quite likely among the worst offenders; kids who are riled up from a busy day, or worn out and crabby, or so forth. Banning them after the fact won't undo the initial irritation, and it won't do anything to resolve future irritations of that sort either, because they'd never be back anyway. Restaurant workers aren't robots, those frustrations are going to add up. No one should be blamed for wanting to make their work environment a bit more tolerable. I think it's hard for a customer to really judge what the experiences of some of these restaurant workers must be like. We should generally trust their judgment, since they're the ones who have to live with the consequences. You or I having to get our coffee to go is trivial in comparison.
So are ban-worthy customers with children so rare that it makes more sense to deal with them on an individual basis? If so, why are certain restaurants and cafes willing to give up the business of the strong majority of parents with well-behaved children? If not, a ban seems rational given we're talking about a luxury service. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Kids will be kids. Of course they are going to want to run around - no matter what country you are in. It's up to the parents to control them. Maybe times have changed but my mother never tolerated that shit in public.
The lack of parenting skills in Korea is the issue. Maybe some form of education is the answer. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been in hundreds of restaurant situations here where kids were present & I cant recall a single seriously disruptive incident. Actually, I like seeing kids out learning social behavior. I'm also a fan of relaxed parenting, letting kids be kids. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Are you saying that bad behavior by children is the majority? That it's the vast majority even? |
No, I'm suggesting that any restaurant or cafe owner willing to ban an entire class of customer from his restaurant, at cost to his business, must see it as sufficiently common-place that such a sacrifice is worth it. This is why I qualified with the phrase "in their experience, anyway" after all. How children all over the world behave isn't really relevant to any particular business owner's experience. For a person whose primary concern vis a vis his establishment is to make money to say, "You know, these customers simply aren't worth the money," surely takes a non-trivial level of grief. |
And when owners do that to foreigners, nigerians, or GIs, there's often blowback on this forum. Banning an entire group because of the actions of some simply doesn't wash by many people's sensibilities.
| Quote: |
| Another problem with your proposed system is the fact that bans do nothing to resolve the problem of problem customers who come for the first time and would otherwise never come again. Koreans like to travel, and plenty of places are going to have frequent "one stop" customers. People traveling with children are quite likely among the worst offenders; kids who are riled up from a busy day, or worn out and crabby, or so forth. Banning them after the fact won't undo the initial irritation, and it won't do anything to resolve future irritations of that sort either, because they'd never be back anyway. Restaurant workers aren't robots, those frustrations are going to add up. No one should be blamed for wanting to make their work environment a bit more tolerable. I think it's hard for a customer to really judge what the experiences of some of these restaurant workers must be like. We should generally trust their judgment, since they're the ones who have to live with the consequences. You or I having to get our coffee to go is trivial in comparison. |
"My solution" works for all ages. Want to disturb others? You get asked to leave. It really is that simple - I've seen it work tons of times.
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| So are ban-worthy customers with children so rare that it makes more sense to deal with them on an individual basis? If so, why are certain restaurants and cafes willing to give up the business of the strong majority of parents with well-behaved children? If not, a ban seems rational given we're talking about a luxury service. |
Are Nigerians that don't drink much so rare that a business risks turning away decent customers for the few who disrupt others? Well, some businesses have though that banning was the easier way to do things. How'd that play out for them?
It's easy to pick on weaker members of society - especially those without a voice in the discussion.
It's sooooo simple - if people are disturbing others, ask them to stop, and/or leave. If kids are disturbing others, call them on it, talk to the parents, or get the staff involved.
I've done it both in Canada and here - I fail to see why it's so difficult? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a question - which causes more disruption in society - kids, or alcohol?
I don't see the forum posters jumping on instituting a ban on alcohol, yet it's causes tons of disruptions in civil society... restaurants, airplanes, heck... even on the street!
But it's ok to ban kids.  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| As for banning kids on planes, how exactly are people supposed to emigrate? Steamship? Trans-Siberian Railway? Ox Cart? Goodness, they can't even get a ride on the Hindenburg or Phileas Fogg's Hot Air Balloon. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I have seen the wild children in public debate across the internet. One conclusion often made is that white people from English speaking countries are the only ones offended by children running rampant, while people from other cultures don't seem to mind as much. |
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