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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:43 pm Post subject: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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While there has been much criticism of Israel's heavy handedness in the Gaza conflict (much of it justified), I have noticed two things. One, there has not been nearly as much public 'outrage' over the brutality of other regimes in the Middle East. Did the massacres in Syria, for example, lead to thousands of people protesting at Western universities? No, it didn't. But when Israel, the only liberal democracy in the Mid-East, behaves badly the protesters come out of the woodwork. I wonder why that is.
Secondly, there is not nearly enough (is there any?) condemnation of the sickening doctrines of Islam with regards to "the Jews". The Koran, like the Christian scriptures, says some truly awful things about Jewish people. This religious hatred is at the heart of Hamas' campaign against Israel. These are not secular Arabs looking to create a pleasant, human-rights based, secular Palestinian state. (If Western protesters think they are, then they are nothing more than well-intentioned fools, Lenin's "useful idiots".) These are religious fanatics who seek to not only destroy Israel, but to exterminate the Jews. (Read article seven of their charter.) Jews are the enemy. They are not to be compromised with. They are to be obliterated. Hamas looks with approval on Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jews. They wish to finish what he started, and believe they have a divine mandate to do so. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem adored Hitler, approved of his measures against the Jews, and personally set up two (Muslim) SS units in Bosnia. This character was none other than Yasser Arafat's uncle.
Does Israel use a sledgehammer when a regular hammer would do the job? Sure. Is Israel guilty of some dastardly behavior, perhaps even war crimes? Sure. And there are many Israelis who will admit this freely. But Israel can only lose once, and it is surrounded by 100 million Muslims who would applaud Israel's destruction. Given that the holocaust is still within living memory, one can sympathize with their plight. Especially so, when one remembers the vile anti-semitism that Muslims are indoctrinated with from birth. Check out this video. It puts the Mid-East problem in context. Maybe next time the university crowd are condemning Israel they might also consider condemning this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu6Ond1ESq8
By posting this I am not excusing the excesses of the IDF. I simply want to point out that the image of the poor Palestinian oppressed by big, bad Israel is a distorted version of reality. If Hamas had the upper hand they would do far, far worse to the Jews than anything the IDF has done to them.
Let's keep that in mind. And let's also remember that Hamas fired rockets into Israel knowning full well that Israel would respond as it did. They put their own children in harms way. Israel is not without its guilt, but neither are the people lobbying rockets into Israel.
How would the US react if Quebec started firing rockets into New York State? What if Libya fired rockets into Egypt? Or Tunisia fired missiles into Algeria? They'd react the exact same way. But you know what? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have massive anti-Algeria or anti-Egyptian protests at American and European universities when those countries struck back, however forcefully. Such condemnation seems to be reserved only for Israel - the Middle East's one and only liberal democracy.
Strange that. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and vileness of Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| While there has been much criticism of Israel's heavy handedness in the Gaza conflict (much of it justified), I have noticed two things. One, there has not been nearly as much public 'outrage' over the brutality of other regimes in the Middle East. Did the massacres in Syria, for example, lead to thousands of people protesting at Western universities? No, it didn't. But when Israel, the only liberal democracy in the Mid-East, behaves badly the protesters come out of the woodwork. I wonder why that is. |
People were calling for bombings and intervention in Syria for years now. There isn't so much of a unified voice because frankly noone has anybody to root for outside that ISIS and Assad are bad people.
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| Secondly, there is not nearly enough (is there any?) condemnation of the sickening doctrines of Islam with regards to "the Jews". The Koran, like the Christian scriptures, says some truly awful things about Jewish people. This religious hatred is at the heart of Hamas' campaign against Israel. These are not secular Arabs looking to create a pleasant, human-rights based, secular Palestinian state. (If Western protesters think they are, then they are nothing more than well-intentioned fools, Lenin's "useful idiots".) These are religious fanatics who seek to not only destroy Israel, but to exterminate the Jews. (Read article seven of their charter.) Jews are the enemy. They are not to be compromised with. They are to be obliterated. Hamas looks with approval on Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jews. They wish to finish what he started, and believe they have a divine mandate to do so. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem adored Hitler, approved of his measures against the Jews, and personally set up two (Muslim) SS units in Bosnia. This character was none other than Yasser Arafat's uncle. |
A.) Throwing all under Palestinians under the same umberalla is idiotic. Hamas has a very different ideolog than the Grand Mufti does, and Hamas itself has moderate factions, many of whom have openly stated they don't care about the charter or that clause.
B.) If you want to play the "they are evil bigots" game I would like to point out Israel's racial policies aren't exactly lovely. The amount of bigotry towards Arabs that are shown by public figures is almost as horrific and there are many documentaries out there that talk about the treatment of arabs by Israeli locals in certain reas.
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Especially so, when one remembers the vile anti-semitism that Muslims are indoctrinated with from birth. Check out this video. It puts the Mid-East problem in context. Maybe next time the university crowd are condemning Israel they might also consider condemning this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu6Ond1ESq8 |
Once again: Do some research on Israeli opinion on Arabs. Both sides are pretty equal when it comes to the venom. The difference is the Palestinians are slightly more defensible when you remember that Israli policies against them have regulated them to essentially prisoners with no home.
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| Let's keep that in mind. And let's also remember that Hamas fired rockets into Israel knowning full well that Israel would respond as it did. |
This comment is horrible for several reasons:
1.) You are blatantly ignoring the fact WHY the rocket attack started. Hint: Almost everyone agrees Israel was the aggressor this time. The last few major conflicts have had Israel as the main aggressor actually.
2.) Hamas has actually put a crapload of effort in holding back rocket attacks. What is often forgotten in the media is that rocket attacks use to be far far more frequent, with it peaking at over a 100 per month. Hamas has spent the last ten years holding back rocket attacks and going after lone wolfs and those out of line. During peacetime, rockets top out at maybe 5 per month and the IDF admits almost all of these are lone wolves or splinter groups and most times Hamas deals with them.
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| They put their own children in harms way. |
Oh god, not another "They use human shields!" bullcrap. Funfact often forgotten: Gaza is one of the most densest population centers on Earth, comparable to Hong Kong or Singapore. Anytime there is any sort of violence, civilians are going to be involved because Gaza is an open air prison and they have nowhere to run to.
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How would the US react if Quebec started firing rockets into New York State? What if Libya fired rockets into Egypt? Or Tunisia fired missiles into Algeria? They'd react the exact same way. But you know what? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have massive anti-Algeria or anti-Egyptian protests at American and European universities when those countries struck back, however forcefully. Such condemnation seems to be reserved only for Israel - the Middle East's one and only liberal democracy.
Strange that. |
None of this is comparable at all. First of all, as mentioned before, pretty much all rocket attacks in peacetime are done by rogues. The IDF has admitted this in the past. We don't go to war with countries for something citizens do all the time. Second, Israel instigated the current conflict. Not Hamas.
If you want a better comparison: Imagine if Quebec invaded New York State because some assholes from America did something bad to a Canadian, immediately conquered and kicked out all the residents and forced them into an open prison where they are limited on where they can go. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Any opinion on the video? Are does that not cause you any offence? The video, and the rabid anti-semitism it exposes, is the purpose of this thread. If you don't think violent, religion-based anti-semitism is at the core of Islamist hatred of Jews and Israel you are delusional.
Again, I am not justifying IDF excesses. I condemn them. But let's not pretend we are dealing with an organization that just wants to just get along, negotiate a fair settlement with Israel, and 'live and let live.'
It's not me saying that. It's Hamas. They don't just hate Israel. They hate Jews. And that needs to be condemned. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and vileness of Islamic anti-semitism. |
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1.) You are blatantly ignoring the fact WHY the rocket attack started. Hint: Almost everyone agrees Israel was the aggressor this time. The last few major conflicts have had Israel as the main aggressor actually. |
Rocket attacks are designed to terrorize the population and make normal life impossible so as to make the generally well off Israelis want to move somewhere else.
Rockets fired at Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion are designed to sabotage the Israeli economy and cut off Israel from the outside world.
All rocket attacks are made indiscriminately at large civilian population centres. The very definition of a war crime.
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None of this is comparable at all. First of all, as mentioned before, pretty much all rocket attacks in peacetime are done by rogues. The IDF has admitted this in the past. We don't go to war with countries for something citizens do all the time. Second, Israel instigated the current conflict. Not Hamas.
If you want a better comparison: Imagine if Quebec invaded New York State because some assholes from America did something bad to a Canadian, immediately conquered and kicked out all the residents and forced them into an open prison where they are limited on where they can go. |
The idea that all the tunnels and logistics involved in maintaining the rocket fire has nothing to do with Hamas or that they are powerless to stop it is just ridiculous.
Israel is not the only reason that Gaza is 'an open prison', Egypt also has its problems with Hamas. In fact Hamas is pretty much hated by everyone including a large number of Palestinians in the West Bank. Hamas is at the centre of this and why life in Ramallah, while difficult, is a damn site better than life in Gaza.
Oh and if you bring up the legitimacy of 1948 Israel's right to exist in a discussion on the ongoing war in Gaza then you are an enemy of peace. |
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actionjackson
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Didn't the former president of Iran also call for the destruction of the Jewish state, and yet it didn't happen. Do you really think that if Palestine was in a more powerful position they'd try to do it? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Smithington wrote: |
While there has been much criticism of Israel's heavy handedness in the Gaza conflict (much of it justified), I have noticed two things. One, there has not been nearly as much public 'outrage' over the brutality of other regimes in the Middle East. Did the massacres in Syria, for example, lead to thousands of people protesting at Western universities? No, it didn't. But when Israel, the only liberal democracy in the Mid-East, behaves badly the protesters come out of the woodwork. I wonder why that is.
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In America, the protesters are saying, "Not in my name." You see, the American government directly funded Israel's Gaza campaign. Only 8 Congressmen refused to give Israel $225 million to bomb Gazans.
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the US pays for 23-25% of Israel's military budget each year.
One can easily think of countless more humane ways for the US to spend $225 million (not to mention the $3.1 billion in total aid given each year).
Anyway, the bill, of course, passed the Senate by unanimous consent.
The House, however, took a vote on it. It passed easily but not unanimously: 395 to 8. Only 4 Democrats and 4 Republicans voted against it. |
There is no other country which America provides such preferential treatment and support; and Congress certainly did not give that much support to middle-class Americans who suffered from the great economic crisis.
So I guess I turn around the question on you: why would anyone think Israel suffers from anti-Semitism when the most powerful country in the world gives it whatever it asks for whenever it requests it. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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There is no other country which America provides such preferential treatment and support; and Congress certainly did not give that much support to middle-class Americans who suffered from the great economic crisis.
So I guess I turn around the question on you: why would anyone think Israel suffers from anti-Semitism when the most powerful country in the world gives it whatever it asks for whenever it requests it. |
Just as with the Marsall Plan America provides aid to serve its own interests, whether they be internal political interests or external strategic considerations.
Israel is an important pillar of global US power and as such gets a good deal of military assistance. How much of that 'aid' is required to be spent on US arms?
The fact is that besides America there are very few (if any) that would be willing to seriously support Israel if they were attacked. Israel is bereft of friends or supporters and faced on all sides with its very right to exist constantly threatened.
Israeli policy on Gaza has been foolish, barbaric and their military first response counter productive. That, however, does not change the fact that there are many places in the world where it is not safe to admit you are Jewish and more dangerous still to admit that you are an Israeli. |
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FriendlyDaegu
Joined: 26 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Any opinion on the video? Are does that not cause you any offence? |
It doesn't offend me in the slightest. Why are you offended? Seems like 'being offended' is the only way people these days know how to respond to an objectionable view..
A good number of these people hate each other. Palestine has been conquered countless times over the last few thousand years by Jews, Arabs, and Christians all trying to control one dumb 'holy spot' on the globe. Can't do that without a lot of hate propagated by the rabbis, bishops, and imams. During each of the occupations there have been uprisings by the persecuted. Hamas is a paramilitary group fighting against the Jews. They are terrorists. The IDF was originally a paramilitary group fighting against the British during their occupation. Also terrorists. Of course they hate each other. It will continue until they realize all this fighting over 'sacred' land on orders from a religion master is a mug's game. Only then can these groups settle into autonomous states. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't offend me in the slightest. Why are you offended? Seems like 'being offended' is the only way people these days know how to respond to an objectionable view..
A good number of these people hate each other. Palestine has been conquered countless times over the last few thousand years by Jews, Arabs, and Christians all trying to control one dumb 'holy spot' on the globe. Can't do that without a lot of hate propagated by the rabbis, bishops, and imams. During each of the occupations there have been uprisings by the persecuted. Hamas is a paramilitary group fighting against the Jews. They are terrorists. The IDF was originally a paramilitary group fighting against the British during their occupation. Also terrorists. Of course they hate each other. It will continue until they realize all this fighting over 'sacred' land on orders from a religion master is a mug's game. Only then can these groups settle into autonomous states. |
The reason you reduce this conflict down to simply a squabble between idiots over nothing is because you are so far removed from its reality. These divisions are real and important to the people living in that region.
They are not just going to suddenly turn round and say 'Hey brah this like totally sucks, lets just make peace and hug it out, m'kay'.
We already know what the peace plan for that region looks like after decades of careful debate and negotiation over very real and important issues such as land exchanges, access to aquifers, shared sovereinty over Dome of the Rock and the right to return. The thing that is missing is political will on both sides, but mainly the Israeli side.
Also the IDF didn't fight the British, the forerunner of the IDF the Haganah fought the British after being in large part turned into a real military by the British to help them quell the 'Palestinians' who had revolted against British rule. In hindsight that wasn't a good plan. |
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FriendlyDaegu
Joined: 26 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
They are not just going to suddenly turn round and say 'Hey brah this like totally sucks, lets just make peace and hug it out, m'kay'.
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Exactly my point. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
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There is no other country which America provides such preferential treatment and support; and Congress certainly did not give that much support to middle-class Americans who suffered from the great economic crisis.
So I guess I turn around the question on you: why would anyone think Israel suffers from anti-Semitism when the most powerful country in the world gives it whatever it asks for whenever it requests it. |
Just as with the Marsall Plan America provides aid to serve its own interests, whether they be internal political interests or external strategic considerations. |
Supporting Israel doesn't serve America's interests.
Here's reason number #5 out of many: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bin-laden-palestinian-cause-prompted-9-11/ |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
There is no other country which America provides such preferential treatment and support; and Congress certainly did not give that much support to middle-class Americans who suffered from the great economic crisis.
So I guess I turn around the question on you: why would anyone think Israel suffers from anti-Semitism when the most powerful country in the world gives it whatever it asks for whenever it requests it. |
Just as with the Marsall Plan America provides aid to serve its own interests, whether they be internal political interests or external strategic considerations. |
Supporting Israel doesn't serve America's interests.
Here's reason number #5 out of many: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bin-laden-palestinian-cause-prompted-9-11/ |
Well obviously the American governments of the last few decades have felt differently.
The fact remains that American support for Israel is not some alturistic act. They are doing it for their own interests and will do so until those interest are served better by shifting support elsewhere. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
There is no other country which America provides such preferential treatment and support; and Congress certainly did not give that much support to middle-class Americans who suffered from the great economic crisis.
So I guess I turn around the question on you: why would anyone think Israel suffers from anti-Semitism when the most powerful country in the world gives it whatever it asks for whenever it requests it. |
Just as with the Marsall Plan America provides aid to serve its own interests, whether they be internal political interests or external strategic considerations. |
Supporting Israel doesn't serve America's interests.
Here's reason number #5 out of many: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bin-laden-palestinian-cause-prompted-9-11/ |
Well obviously the American governments of the last few decades have felt differently.
The fact remains that American support for Israel is not some alturistic act. They are doing it for their own interests and will do so until those interest are served better by shifting support elsewhere. |
Whatever is your point? Do you really think I am accusing the American gov't of altruism?
If you scroll back up, I am responding to the ridiculous premise that Israel is a victim of anti-semitism. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Hamas, Gaza, and Islamic anti-semitism. |
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Whatever is your point? Do you really think I am accusing the American gov't of altruism?
If you scroll back up, I am responding to the ridiculous premise that Israel is a victim of anti-semitism. |
Yes, I do when you write things like this:
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| There is no other country which America provides such preferential treatment and support; and Congress certainly did not give that much support to middle-class Americans who suffered from the great economic crisis. |
I pointed out that the 'aid' given by America is done purely out of reasons of self interest. The money is not given for any other reason than that and does in no way invalidate the fact that Israel is indeed victim of anti-semitism.
It is very clear that the Jewish/Muslim, Israeli/Arab dimesion to this issue is one of the reasons why this war more than other far bigger conflicts has the profile it does. The rather minimal support to Israel by their only serious ally is hardly evidence to the contray.
Although I will concede that being so close to the US, Israel does indeed cop a lot of second hand flak from the Anti-US, Anti-Capitalism and general Anti-West types.
Can you think of any other foreign conflict, that doesn't involve any direct military participation from NATO countries, that can mobilize the indignant rage of tens of thousands of protestors from London to Jakarta and from Paris to Jonhannesburg? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| actionjackson wrote: |
| Didn't the former president of Iran also call for the destruction of the Jewish state, and yet it didn't happen. Do you really think that if Palestine was in a more powerful position they'd try to do it? |
1. Of course it didn't happen. Israel has a vastly superior military and most importantly, it has nukes.
2. Yes, if they were significantly more powerful, but that's not going to be the case in our lifetime.
I think I understand Israeli thinking. I understand their rationale and don't blame them for their actions. That being said, I think those actions are ultimately self-defeating and I do not support my government giving Israel billions of dollars in aid. |
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