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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:39 am Post subject: Greece votes No |
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Greece votes No: The European Union is dying before our eyes
The Telegraph July 6th
It's not just disaffected pensioners: young Greeks have worked out that they don't need the bloated EU
Despite the scaremongering and bullying from those in Brussels, we are waking today with Greece having delivered a resounding No.
That comes despite EU bosses saying that it would mean a Greek exit from the Euro, not to mention the heavy economic pressure placed on the Greek people to go along with the wishes of Brussels. It is a crushing defeat for those Eurocrats who believe that you can simply bulldoze public opinion.
Chief bully-boy Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament, and other supposed leaders of the European Union did their best to terrify the Greek people into submitting to the wishes of the European Union. But they utterly failed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11720081/Greece-votes-No-The-European-Union-is-dying-before-our-eyes.html |
Good for them! No more pompous lectures from Eurocrats. Bring back the Drachma and start anew. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Gotta admire the balls on the Greeks. This may be a matter of 'too big to let fail' I wasn't sympathetic to them before but its growing. One of them said, if they were a bank and owed the same amount the EU would bail them out no question. Its a good point.
Greece shoudn't have been let in the EU in the first place. The choice was Greece or Turkey and Turkey was the better candidate. My guess is they didn't want a moslem country in the EU at the time, just my guess, no matter the fact that Turkey is a secular state. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Gotta admire the balls on the Greeks. This may be a matter of 'too big to let fail' I wasn't sympathetic to them before but its growing. One of them said, if they were a bank and owed the same amount the EU would bail them out no question. Its a good point.
Greece shoudn't have been let in the EU in the first place. The choice was Greece or Turkey and Turkey was the better candidate. My guess is they didn't want a moslem country in the EU at the time, just my guess, no matter the fact that Turkey is a secular state. |
True, I remember a decade back when Turkish membership was being seriously discussed, in places like France and Germany influential politicians were saying that they'd hold a referendum on it and advocate a rejection of Turkey. It was a popular position too.
Greece joined the EU/EEC at the start of the 1980s, I think you're conflating EU membership and Euro membership. Turkey wasn't in the picture when Greece joined, and even then it wouldn't have been an either/or decision. The Greeks had been caught out a few years after joining the single currency, lying and fudging numbers, but by then they were in. It's seems to have bitten them in the ass now, and folk who were otherwise nothing to do with it are suffering.
Turkey as a member, at a stroke would be the biggest member of the EU population-wise. It is poor. When the 2004 big bang happened, the East European countries had an income only a third of the Western European average income. Turkey is a solid one-third of the Eastern European income. It gets worse on a North-west/South-east axis. When you get out into the provinces, it's poor. I remember hanging around in Mugla, good God what a sh-t-hole, along with much of the South-west outwith the resorts.
I would gladly welcome them into the EU, but it would be an extremely tricky social/cultural/economic feat. I would simply sum it up as- "Not ready yet." |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Gotta admire the balls on the Greeks. This may be a matter of 'too big to let fail' I wasn't sympathetic to them before but its growing. One of them said, if they were a bank and owed the same amount the EU would bail them out no question. Its a good point.
Greece shoudn't have been let in the EU in the first place. The choice was Greece or Turkey and Turkey was the better candidate. My guess is they didn't want a moslem country in the EU at the time, just my guess, no matter the fact that Turkey is a secular state. |
True, I remember a decade back when Turkish membership was being seriously discussed, in places like France and Germany influential politicians were saying that they'd hold a referendum on it and advocate a rejection of Turkey. It was a popular position too.
Greece joined the EU/EEC at the start of the 1980s, I think you're conflating EU membership and Euro membership. Turkey wasn't in the picture when Greece joined, and even then it wouldn't have been an either/or decision. The Greeks had been caught out a few years after joining the single currency, lying and fudging numbers, but by then they were in. It's seems to have bitten them in the ass now, and folk who were otherwise nothing to do with it are suffering.
Turkey as a member, at a stroke would be the biggest member of the EU population-wise. It is poor. When the 2004 big bang happened, the East European countries had an income only a third of the Western European average income. Turkey is a solid one-third of the Eastern European income. It gets worse on a North-west/South-east axis. When you get out into the provinces, it's poor. I remember hanging around in Mugla, good God what a sh-t-hole, along with much of the South-west outwith the resorts.
I would gladly welcome them into the EU, but it would be an extremely tricky social/cultural/economic feat. I would simply sum it up as- "Not ready yet." |
I've asked various Europeans about the prospect of Turkey joining the EU. Suffice to say, every single one was against it. And it cut across all age groups. If they had a referendum on it, I'm betting like 80%+ against Turkey becoming an EU member.
When it comes down to it Greece, to many Northern Europeans, is essentially the edge of the European world. And they barely consider Greeks Europeans, and many northern Europeans (Germans, Dutch, Swedes...) consider Greece 3rd-world. With Turkey, the cultural divide is just too large I guess. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Gotta admire the balls on the Greeks. This may be a matter of 'too big to let fail' I wasn't sympathetic to them before but its growing. One of them said, if they were a bank and owed the same amount the EU would bail them out no question. Its a good point.
Greece shoudn't have been let in the EU in the first place. The choice was Greece or Turkey and Turkey was the better candidate. My guess is they didn't want a moslem country in the EU at the time, just my guess, no matter the fact that Turkey is a secular state. |
True, I remember a decade back when Turkish membership was being seriously discussed, in places like France and Germany influential politicians were saying that they'd hold a referendum on it and advocate a rejection of Turkey. It was a popular position too.
Greece joined the EU/EEC at the start of the 1980s, I think you're conflating EU membership and Euro membership. Turkey wasn't in the picture when Greece joined, and even then it wouldn't have been an either/or decision. The Greeks had been caught out a few years after joining the single currency, lying and fudging numbers, but by then they were in. It's seems to have bitten them in the ass now, and folk who were otherwise nothing to do with it are suffering.
Turkey as a member, at a stroke would be the biggest member of the EU population-wise. It is poor. When the 2004 big bang happened, the East European countries had an income only a third of the Western European average income. Turkey is a solid one-third of the Eastern European income. It gets worse on a North-west/South-east axis. When you get out into the provinces, it's poor. I remember hanging around in Mugla, good God what a sh-t-hole, along with much of the South-west outwith the resorts.
I would gladly welcome them into the EU, but it would be an extremely tricky social/cultural/economic feat. I would simply sum it up as- "Not ready yet." |
I've asked various Europeans about the prospect of Turkey joining the EU. Suffice to say, every single one was against it. And it cut across all age groups. If they had a referendum on it, I'm betting like 80%+ against Turkey becoming an EU member.
When it comes down to it Greece, to many Northern Europeans, is essentially the edge of the European world. And they barely consider Greeks Europeans, and many northern Europeans (Germans, Dutch, Swedes...) consider Greece 3rd-world. With Turkey, the cultural divide is just too large I guess. |
Yeah it's quite a turn-around. I've been spending part of the lazy hot Southern summer reading a tome on Roman Britain. Back then Northwest Europe was seen as the edge of the world. Claudius' troops initially refused to board the ships to invade Britain in AD 43 because it was "over the ocean", and they didn't want to go. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Piketty called the Germans out on their unwillingness to cancel Greek debt. I can't find a link on baidu quickly, so here is something related to Piketty's view:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6894678 |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
Piketty called the Germans out on their unwillingness to cancel Greek debt. I can't find a link on baidu quickly, so here is something related to Piketty's view:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6894678 |
If Greece still had its own currency they could simply quantatively-ease the problem away (as post-war Germany did). |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:55 am Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:13 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
[ Turkey is a solid one-third of the Eastern European income. It gets worse on a North-west/South-east axis. When you get out into the provinces, it's poor. I remember hanging around in Mugla, good God what a sh-t-hole, along with much of the South-west outwith the resorts.
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Turkey has a higher per capita income than Bulgaria ($18,800 vs $15,200) and about the same as Romania ($18,410). It is probably less corrupt than Bulgaria as well. Those two countries probably should not have been allowed into the EU either. Croatia is a better match for the EU than all 3...
I understand the cultural reasons for not allowing Turkey into the EU (and now the political ones due to its d-bag President Erdogan), but I don't think there is much of an economic case to keep Turkey out. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
[ Turkey is a solid one-third of the Eastern European income. It gets worse on a North-west/South-east axis. When you get out into the provinces, it's poor. I remember hanging around in Mugla, good God what a sh-t-hole, along with much of the South-west outwith the resorts.
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Turkey has a higher per capita income than Bulgaria ($18,800 vs $15,200) and about the same as Romania ($18,410). It is probably less corrupt than Bulgaria as well. Those two countries probably should not have been allowed into the EU either. Croatia is a better match for the EU than all 3...
I understand the cultural reasons for not allowing Turkey into the EU (and now the political ones due to its d-bag President Erdogan), but I don't think there is much of an economic case to keep Turkey out. |
Aye looking it up just now, you're right. I'm talking from over ten years back.  |
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