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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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(^ continued from last page)
There was also this controversy in Hamilton a couple of years back...
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The owner of a downtown restaurant displaying the Confederate flag says he's not racist. He was just looking for an iconic Southern image to advertise his new eatery.
Cameron Bailey owns Hillbilly Heaven at the corner of King Street East and Walnut Street North, which opens this month. This is his second location in the city.
Bailey said he knew the flag and its connection to slavery would cause problems, but he was looking for a "southern icon."
"Did I know the shit would hit the fan? I'll be honest with you. Of course I did," he said. "But I'm not going to not do it because some people might make a big deal out of it."
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Obvioualy, this did lead to some protest from local residents.
I'm curious about these comments from the professor of History in Houston...
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The flag is an offensive image, and using it as a marketing tool is "absurd," said Gerald Horne, a professor of history at the University of Houston. Canada has been historically ardently anti-slavery and nearly became the target of U.S. attacks for it.
"What kind of so-called Canadian patriot will fly the flag of a now-forgotten nation that intended an attack on his homeland?" Horne said. "This, to me, is outrageous."
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As far as I know, it was the UNION that gave some thought to grabbing Canada during the ACW, due to the perceived pro-Confederate symapthies of Great Britain, as well as the Province Of Canada itself, as exemplified by the Trent Affair, the CSS Alabama, and the St. Albans Raid.
If he means that the states which later became the CSA wanted to attack Canada during the days of the Underground Railroad, that makes more sense, though his use of the phrase "now-forgotten nation" doesn't really fit in that case.
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
(^ continued from last page)
There was also this controversy in Hamilton a couple of years back...
| Quote: |
The owner of a downtown restaurant displaying the Confederate flag says he's not racist. He was just looking for an iconic Southern image to advertise his new eatery.
Cameron Bailey owns Hillbilly Heaven at the corner of King Street East and Walnut Street North, which opens this month. This is his second location in the city.
Bailey said he knew the flag and its connection to slavery would cause problems, but he was looking for a "southern icon."
"Did I know the shit would hit the fan? I'll be honest with you. Of course I did," he said. "But I'm not going to not do it because some people might make a big deal out of it."
|
Obvioualy, this did lead to some protest from local residents.
I'm curious about these comments from the professor of History in Houston...
| Quote: |
The flag is an offensive image, and using it as a marketing tool is "absurd," said Gerald Horne, a professor of history at the University of Houston. Canada has been historically ardently anti-slavery and nearly became the target of U.S. attacks for it.
"What kind of so-called Canadian patriot will fly the flag of a now-forgotten nation that intended an attack on his homeland?" Horne said. "This, to me, is outrageous."
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As far as I know, it was the UNION that gave some thought to grabbing Canada during the ACW, due to the perceived pro-Confederate symapthies of Great Britain, as well as the Province Of Canada itself, as exemplified by the Trent Affair, the CSS Alabama, and the St. Albans Raid.
If he means that the states which later became the CSA wanted to attack Canada during the days of the Underground Railroad, that makes more sense, though his use of the phrase "now-forgotten nation" doesn't really fit in that case.
link |
The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| sligo wrote: |
A lot of Germans fought bravely from 1939 - 1945. Shall we fly their flag too? |
I have no problem with an Iron Cross over the graves of people like Rommel or Doenitz and regular German soldiers, sailors, and airmen. However those that were in say, the Waffen SS or other such units should not receive that recognition.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
Absolutely the Confederacy wanted to found an "Empire for Slavery", however through the primary source materials I have come across in my Civil War readings, there is little in the correspondence of average Confederate soldiers expressing any interest in a slavery empire and one day hoping to be slavers themselves. Their reasons for fighting usually centered around a friend, family member, or their town going off to fight and as for the cause, either the belief in slavery and its order and/or states rights OR worked up testosterone and wanting to "whip Yankees" OR a simple reaction to what they perceived as them being invaded. There was little expressed interest in a slavery empire. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
A lot of Germans fought bravely from 1939 - 1945. Shall we fly their flag too? |
I have no problem with an Iron Cross over the graves of people like Rommel or Doenitz and regular German soldiers, sailors, and airmen. However those that were in say, the Waffen SS or other such units should not receive that recognition.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
Absolutely the Confederacy wanted to found an "Empire for Slavery", however through the primary source materials I have come across in my Civil War readings, there is little in the correspondence of average Confederate soldiers expressing any interest in a slavery empire and one day hoping to be slavers themselves. Their reasons for fighting usually centered around a friend, family member, or their town going off to fight and as for the cause, either the belief in slavery and its order and/or states rights OR worked up testosterone and wanting to "whip Yankees" OR a simple reaction to what they perceived as them being invaded. There was little expressed interest in a slavery empire. |
Have you read U.S. Grant's memoirs? Do you remember what event which occurred before the Civil War that he regretted the most? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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PM wrote:
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| The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
Yeah, I know that they were planning a southward expansion, big time. But the prof's assertion that the CSA was planning to attack Canada, at a time when they were desperately trying to secure British support for their cause, strikes me as a little odd.
I'm going to assume that he meant the pre-CSA southern states wanted the US to attack Canada to stomp out the Underground Railroad. Which seems entirely plausible. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
A lot of Germans fought bravely from 1939 - 1945. Shall we fly their flag too? |
I have no problem with an Iron Cross over the graves of people like Rommel or Doenitz and regular German soldiers, sailors, and airmen. However those that were in say, the Waffen SS or other such units should not receive that recognition.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
Absolutely the Confederacy wanted to found an "Empire for Slavery", however through the primary source materials I have come across in my Civil War readings, there is little in the correspondence of average Confederate soldiers expressing any interest in a slavery empire and one day hoping to be slavers themselves. Their reasons for fighting usually centered around a friend, family member, or their town going off to fight and as for the cause, either the belief in slavery and its order and/or states rights OR worked up testosterone and wanting to "whip Yankees" OR a simple reaction to what they perceived as them being invaded. There was little expressed interest in a slavery empire. |
Have you read U.S. Grant's memoirs? Do you remember what event which occurred before the Civil War that he regretted the most? |
The Mexican War. A wicked war fought for expanding slave territory and the act of a larger, more prosperous nation bullying a weaker one.
But, we were talking about the common soldier, not the politicians. I agree that the Empire for Slavery was on the minds of men like the Cobb brothers, Maxcy Gregg, Wade Hampton, and so forth, but I'll tell you this- the minute a man marched forth and had the first volley tear into his line or heard the words "load canister", any desire to fight for 40 acres and slaves went out the window. What was left was bravery, loyalty, friendship, duty, and yes, hatred.
That's not to say there weren't some profiteers out there, but they tended to trade in abstract goals like a slavery empire into concrete ones like a cotton smuggling operation.
Maybe some of the "90 Days War" types joined up because they had slaves in sight, but pretty much everyone post Seven Days realized that this was going to be a grim war. Those that wanted a quick grab at slaves probably deserted shortly thereafter. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
A lot of Germans fought bravely from 1939 - 1945. Shall we fly their flag too? |
I have no problem with an Iron Cross over the graves of people like Rommel or Doenitz and regular German soldiers, sailors, and airmen. However those that were in say, the Waffen SS or other such units should not receive that recognition.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
Absolutely the Confederacy wanted to found an "Empire for Slavery", however through the primary source materials I have come across in my Civil War readings, there is little in the correspondence of average Confederate soldiers expressing any interest in a slavery empire and one day hoping to be slavers themselves. Their reasons for fighting usually centered around a friend, family member, or their town going off to fight and as for the cause, either the belief in slavery and its order and/or states rights OR worked up testosterone and wanting to "whip Yankees" OR a simple reaction to what they perceived as them being invaded. There was little expressed interest in a slavery empire. |
Have you read U.S. Grant's memoirs? Do you remember what event which occurred before the Civil War that he regretted the most? |
The Mexican War. A wicked war fought for expanding slave territory and the act of a larger, more prosperous nation bullying a weaker one.
But, we were talking about the common soldier, not the politicians. I agree that the Empire for Slavery was on the minds of men like the Cobb brothers, Maxcy Gregg, Wade Hampton, and so forth, but I'll tell you this- the minute a man marched forth and had the first volley tear into his line or heard the words "load canister", any desire to fight for 40 acres and slaves went out the window. What was left was bravery, loyalty, friendship, duty, and yes, hatred.
That's not to say there weren't some profiteers out there, but they tended to trade in abstract goals like a slavery empire into concrete ones like a cotton smuggling operation.
Maybe some of the "90 Days War" types joined up because they had slaves in sight, but pretty much everyone post Seven Days realized that this was going to be a grim war. Those that wanted a quick grab at slaves probably deserted shortly thereafter. |
That's right. You see loyalty and particularly brotherhood as a reason soldiers fight in every conflict, but many Union soldiers did fight to end slavery (although this was emphatically not the goal of Lincoln or top Union generals, at least not until the Emancipation Proclamation).
Okay, I don't want to go too far down this rabbit-hole; I looked around and the primary sources on my claim are weaker than I thought. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| sligo wrote: |
A lot of Germans fought bravely from 1939 - 1945. Shall we fly their flag too? |
I have no problem with an Iron Cross over the graves of people like Rommel or Doenitz and regular German soldiers, sailors, and airmen. However those that were in say, the Waffen SS or other such units should not receive that recognition.
| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| The Confederacy wanted to enslave the entire Americas, starting with Mexico and Cuba. I will post sources later, but this intent for future colonization explains why poor whites fought for slavery; they were future masters, and hoped for forty acres and slaves in some even more southern land. |
Absolutely the Confederacy wanted to found an "Empire for Slavery", however through the primary source materials I have come across in my Civil War readings, there is little in the correspondence of average Confederate soldiers expressing any interest in a slavery empire and one day hoping to be slavers themselves. Their reasons for fighting usually centered around a friend, family member, or their town going off to fight and as for the cause, either the belief in slavery and its order and/or states rights OR worked up testosterone and wanting to "whip Yankees" OR a simple reaction to what they perceived as them being invaded. There was little expressed interest in a slavery empire. |
Have you read U.S. Grant's memoirs? Do you remember what event which occurred before the Civil War that he regretted the most? |
The Mexican War. A wicked war fought for expanding slave territory and the act of a larger, more prosperous nation bullying a weaker one.
But, we were talking about the common soldier, not the politicians. I agree that the Empire for Slavery was on the minds of men like the Cobb brothers, Maxcy Gregg, Wade Hampton, and so forth, but I'll tell you this- the minute a man marched forth and had the first volley tear into his line or heard the words "load canister", any desire to fight for 40 acres and slaves went out the window. What was left was bravery, loyalty, friendship, duty, and yes, hatred.
That's not to say there weren't some profiteers out there, but they tended to trade in abstract goals like a slavery empire into concrete ones like a cotton smuggling operation.
Maybe some of the "90 Days War" types joined up because they had slaves in sight, but pretty much everyone post Seven Days realized that this was going to be a grim war. Those that wanted a quick grab at slaves probably deserted shortly thereafter. |
I would say this is fairly accurate. Too, I think only a very small percentage of confederate soldiers owned slaves. Perhaps many of the soldiers were share croppers themselves. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
(^ continued from last page)
There was also this controversy in Hamilton a couple of years back...
| Quote: |
The owner of a downtown restaurant displaying the Confederate flag says he's not racist. He was just looking for an iconic Southern image to advertise his new eatery.
Cameron Bailey owns Hillbilly Heaven at the corner of King Street East and Walnut Street North, which opens this month. This is his second location in the city.
Bailey said he knew the flag and its connection to slavery would cause problems, but he was looking for a "southern icon."
"Did I know the shit would hit the fan? I'll be honest with you. Of course I did," he said. "But I'm not going to not do it because some people might make a big deal out of it."
|
Obvioualy, this did lead to some protest from local residents.
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The restaurant's flag has apparently been taken down.
| Quote: |
In 2013, Hamilton, Ont.’s Hillbilly Heaven restaurant faced a barrage of criticism for hanging a Confederate battle flag over its front door.
Owner Cameron Bailey argued that he was just trying to find an iconic southern symbol to advertise his barbeque-laden menu, although the standard has since been taken down.
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Why the Cobfederate Flag is surorisingly abundant in Canada |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| I would say this is fairly accurate. Too, I think only a very small percentage of confederate soldiers owned slaves. Perhaps many of the soldiers were share croppers themselves. |
That is spot on. Confederate soldiers fought for their homes, their families and their respective states...that was back when the citizens actually gave a crap about an oppressive federal government (now), in which the Union blue invaded.
Honestly, I would do the same thing. Protecting your home and family trumps everything.
Whoever is spouting these platitudes regarding the Stars and Bars a flag of hate and what not....really should take their heads out of the asses, and actually study the narrative(s) behind the War Between the States, as opposed to swallowing the false rhetoric surrounding it. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Whoever is spouting these platitudes regarding the Stars and Bars a flag of hate and what not |
Among those attacking the Confederate flag are undoubtedly those who proudly wave the hammer and sickle, an emblem of the most bloody ideology of the 20th century. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Whoever is spouting these platitudes regarding the Stars and Bars a flag of hate and what not |
Among those attacking the Confederate flag are undoubtedly those who proudly wave the hammer and sickle, an emblem of the most bloody ideology of the 20th century. |
Among those who bear a 'b' in the beginning of their name, but who do not capitalize it, are undoubtedly those who boldly play the flute and tambourine, each an emblem as the outcasts of the percussion and wind instrument ensembles respectively. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| trueblue wrote: |
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| I would say this is fairly accurate. Too, I think only a very small percentage of confederate soldiers owned slaves. Perhaps many of the soldiers were share croppers themselves. |
That is spot on. Confederate soldiers fought for their homes, their families and their respective states...that was back when the citizens actually gave a crap about an oppressive federal government (now), in which the Union blue invaded.
Honestly, I would do the same thing. Protecting your home and family trumps everything.
Whoever is spouting these platitudes regarding the Stars and Bars a flag of hate and what not....really should take their heads out of the asses, and actually study the narrative(s) behind the War Between the States, as opposed to swallowing the false rhetoric surrounding it. |
Read some of what Abraham Lincoln said as he addressed the people. He didn't really have a problem with slavery. He was okay with slavery continuing as long as there was a union of the states.
Why aren't the people asking for the bringing down of statues, monuments, and pictures of Abraham Lincoln? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
| trueblue wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I would say this is fairly accurate. Too, I think only a very small percentage of confederate soldiers owned slaves. Perhaps many of the soldiers were share croppers themselves. |
That is spot on. Confederate soldiers fought for their homes, their families and their respective states...that was back when the citizens actually gave a crap about an oppressive federal government (now), in which the Union blue invaded.
Honestly, I would do the same thing. Protecting your home and family trumps everything.
Whoever is spouting these platitudes regarding the Stars and Bars a flag of hate and what not....really should take their heads out of the asses, and actually study the narrative(s) behind the War Between the States, as opposed to swallowing the false rhetoric surrounding it. |
Read some of what Abraham Lincoln said as he addressed the people. He didn't really have a problem with slavery. He was okay with slavery continuing as long as there was a union of the states.
Why aren't the people asking for the bringing down of statues, monuments, and pictures of Abraham Lincoln? |
Spare us the revisionist history.
link 1
link 2
The National Park Service short history of Lincoln's public views on slavery
He hated slavery, but didn't know how to end it. He didn't suport the expansion of it. |
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