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correct use of "much"

 
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Wisco Kid



Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Location: Changwon

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:22 am    Post subject: correct use of "much" Reply with quote

The Korean teachers at my school seem to use the word "much" way too much.

In the following sentence, "much" seems out of place to me. Is it gramatically correct?

Father has to spend much money.


If I were to rewrite it, I'd say "Father has to spend a lot of money".

However, the negative form sounds correct: "father doesn't have to spend much money".
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Hagwon Muppet



Joined: 18 Mar 2003

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah its a hangover from direct translation of the Korean 'manhi' I think. If any kid uses it beat them until the neurons that control the 'much' response curl up and die.

Then go drink soju until the neurons that control your 'sense of shame about beating kids' response float out your left ear!

Razz Razz
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Wisco Kid



Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Location: Changwon

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard any kids use it, only the Korean teachers and director.
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kimchikowboy



Joined: 24 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they learn "much" and "money" together as a cluster. My uni students do it, too.
Problem is we generally don't use much in positive statements. It's used primarily in questions (Do you have much money) and negative statements (I don't have much money). For positive statements using uncountable nouns, we generally use "a lot."
An exception is when we use a modifier, like: I like her very much.
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ghostshadow



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess they have to re-educate them on grammer-

Many is used with plural countable nouns and
Much is used with uncountable nouns
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J.B. Clamence



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostshadow wrote:
I guess they have to re-educate them on grammer-

Many is used with plural countable nouns and
Much is used with uncountable nouns


Correct, but what the OP is asking about is whether or not you can use much/many in these types of sentences. According to the grammar rule you cited, the sentence "Father has to spend much money" is not in violation of that particular rule because "money" is indeed uncountable.

However, this usage is very awkward. I don't know if it violates any particular grammar rule, but I would say that it is indeed incorrect usage. It should be corrected to "a lot of." If an explanation is required, I would simply say that "much" by itself in front of a noun (ie- without a word like "not" or "too" to accompany it) sounds very awkward and antiquated, and does not conform to modern usage. That's the best explanation that I can think of.
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thorin



Joined: 14 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghostshadow wrote:
I guess they have to re-educate them on grammer-

Many is used with plural countable nouns and
Much is used with uncountable nouns


How much do you want to bet?
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phaedrus



Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thorin wrote:
ghostshadow wrote:
I guess they have to re-educate them on grammer-

Many is used with plural countable nouns and
Much is used with uncountable nouns


How much do you want to bet?


I could bet a lot, because I have too much money.

J.B. Clamence wrote:
I would simply say that "much" by itself in front of a noun (ie- without a word like "not" or "too" to accompany it) sounds very awkward
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Wisco Kid



Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Location: Changwon

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"How much do you want to bet?"

but

"How many dollars do you want to bet?"



"I like her very much" = OK

"I like her much" = Confused
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J.B. Clamence wrote:
ghostshadow wrote:
I guess they have to re-educate them on grammer-

Many is used with plural countable nouns and
Much is used with uncountable nouns


Correct, but what the OP is asking about is whether or not you can use much/many in these types of sentences. According to the grammar rule you cited, the sentence "Father has to spend much money" is not in violation of that particular rule because "money" is indeed uncountable.

However, this usage is very awkward. I don't know if it violates any particular grammar rule, but I would say that it is indeed incorrect usage. It should be corrected to "a lot of." If an explanation is required, I would simply say that "much" by itself in front of a noun (ie- without a word like "not" or "too" to accompany it) sounds very awkward and antiquated, and does not conform to modern usage. That's the best explanation that I can think of.


What I would suggest telling the student is:

"Father has to spend much money." (grammatically correct)
"Father has to spend a lot of money." (more commonly used)

I've noticed that a lot of Korean students will do writing compositions where they occasionally use antiquated vocabulary; I think this happens because the dictionaries provide technically correct translations, but don't explain which words are more commonly used. A distinction I often use in class is:

"I will marry next year." (correct/ok)
"I will get married next year." (better)

Now, there's no particular reason why 'marry' needs an auxillary verb; it's just more commonly used nowadays, and auxillary verbs seem to be slightly more common (IMHO) in American English than in British English. I just tell students that the first is ok, the second is more common, and get them to practice it orally for a few minutes.
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Zed



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wisco Kid wrote:
"How much do you want to bet?"

but

"How many dollars do you want to bet?"


No problem. You can't count money but you can count dollars.
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