Korean Job Discussion Forums

[hellofaniceguy]

Not to start a flame war, etc...but why is it that experienced teachers always seem to agree to accept the same amount of pay as newbies?
Yeah yeah, that's what the school offers so no choice...I've heard that before. But it doesn't fly.
A college grad, no experience in teaching, fresh off the boat/plane, never having left their home country before, comes to korea, gets a job, does not know about the customs, culture, pronunciation mistakes, tricks of the trade in teaching koreans, does not know about the great hakwon owners korea has, etc...and signs on for 1.8. The other teacher, experienced, been in country for years, never did the midnight run, puts up with all the BS from living in korea and the BS from the school owner, etc. and still agrees to 1.8!
Am I missing something?
And after signing, both complain that they are earning to little!
Sure, if the experienced teacher holds out for more, the hakwon owner will go with the cheaper pay route. So, can't win for losing.
I know a few teachers at some hokwons AND universities who signed on for a second year and did NOT get pay raises at the unis or the hakwons!
Go figure!
At the universities, korean professors/teachers, a NEW korean inexperienced teacher gets paid over 3.0 a month. Just ask some of your close korean friends who are professors. While the FT gets 1.8/1.9!
Same at hakwons...I know a few KT's who NEVER went to a western university and never left korea and are teaching English and being paid 1.8!
It seems to me that the FT's are the ones that keep the salaries so low.
All this talk about, the econcomy is bad is BS! It's always bad! Yet the price of apartments, food, travel, gas, and everything keeps going up.
But what does that have to do with teachers accepting the same wages?

[Juggertha]

Don't worry man. Seems "alot" of experirnced EFLers are now opening up their own schools. Soon enough, the old hogwons will die the deaths they deserve.

So, if they are not willing to pay for experience, i'm guessing "experience" will just open up shop a few doors down.

[chronicpride]

A gig is not just about a salary. I'm not a drone that stares and drools and makes decisions on whether if something says 1.8 or 2.0 on a contract. And I wouldn't expect all others to be either.

I know over a dozen ppl who have re-newed contracts at their schools for 2nd and 3rd years, for 1.8 and 1.9. Just because, they love other aspects of the job, students, accommodation, work environment, location, etc, etc, etc...

Mind you, I do know ppl that have been here for many years and settled for 1.8, 1.9 on a new school without any significant upside on other areas. If you've been here for a couple of years and take a job like that without any redeeming qualities that make the salary less important to your needs, and you complain about that, then there is a problem.

But I don't have any issue with a long-termer taking a 1.8 or 1.9, if they are happy with the job and other aspects. I'd rather listen to that guy than a guy working 2.2 with 20 hrs of prep and working in hell.

[Grotto]

I was tempted to sign up for a second year at 1.8 simply due to the fact I was getting 1.2 mil extra in privates. So my weekly workweek was 30 hours at hogwan and 6 hours at privates. Total pay was 3 mil even. Once you have your network established you can work less and pull in decent coin off of privates.

My second year I got 2.0 and made 400k in privates and I was working over 40 hours a week total for 600k less. Go figure!

[Gollum]

It's not about salary. It's about hours worked per $$ for me. Also, about how much free time I have, and if i enjoy the job.

[Homer]

To the OP:

1: "At the universities, korean professors/teachers, a NEW korean inexperienced teacher gets paid over 3.0 a month. Just ask some of your close korean friends who are professors. While the FT gets 1.8/1.9! "

This is an invalid comparison as the Korean you mentioned is a professor and the Foreigner would be an English instructor.
Two very different ball games.

Also, the 1.8-1.9 for a FT at a univeristy is based on much less hours per week then that of the average hakwon teacher and has more vacation time, hence the pay is in essence higher.

As for experienced vs inexperienced teacher hellofaniceguy, what you said has to concern those experienced teachers who either did a piss poor job (experience has to be quakity experience, not just time in one spot) or did not research and negociate very well.

Good experience (with references) in Korea is bankable when looking for new work here. Just ask those of us here who are experienced. It is all about doing some research and then negociating.
Of course to effectively negociate you have to have something to back yourself up, such as references and a solid work experience.
If a person worked as a teacher in a hakwon and decided that the boss was an idiot and then clowned all year then why would a better job accept this person?
You could always negociate for a better deal even without references but again this comes down to research and effort.
These raises and good jobs will not land on your lap and employers will not line up at your feet just because you are a FT with some experience....

[Real Reality]

Homer wrote,
"Good experience (with references) in Korea is bankable when looking for new work here. Just ask those of us here who are experienced. It is all about doing some research and then negociating."

By all means, do "some research." But always remember, you are a foreigner doing the "negociating."

E-1 (Professors)
::: A. The Object of Visa Issuance :::
This category applies to foreigners who, as qualified individuals specified by the Educational Law, wish to instruct special fields of study or engage in the guidance of research at junior colleges or higher educational institutions, or the institutions corresponding to such levels.
* In the case of a national or a public university, a foreigner is not permitted to be a full-time professor.
http://www.moj.go.kr/immi/08_english/02_business/e_1.html
Source site:
http://www.moj.go.kr/immi/08_english/02_business/service_01.html

Foreign scholars merit equal status
Foreign professors tend to be treated as hired hands, without academic standing, and lacking the possibility of career advancement or tenure. They must submit to yearly contracts (compensated at a rate only 60 percent of their Korean peers) while walled off from the permanent Korean faculty who benefit from travel, research funding, sabbaticals, etc. Moreover, when hundreds of Korean scholars enjoy such perks at American and other foreign universities, something is obviously amiss. Rotating foreign professors will hardly solve the problem that lies at the heart of Korean culture and manifests itself in most Korean organizations, where foreigners generally remain apart from decison-making.

According to the Samsung Group's chairman, Lee Kun-hee, to succeed globally, Korea must forgo the thought that Korea and being Korean is superior, and foreign specialists must be treated with respect. If Korean companies follow this standard, Korea's institutions of higher learning cannot afford to do less.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200206/14/200206142349223599900090109011.html

Professor Salary (2000 Salary Survey)
South Korea: $5,511 per month
Exchange rate per US$1 used to calculate monthly salary; South Korea: 1,134 won equals US$1
http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/salaries/2000/popups/content/21prof.html

Integrity of university professors
To my knowledge, there has never been a single case in Korea where a Ph.D. candidate has failed to obtain his or her degree. Speaking as a Korean professor, however, I acknowledge that not all theses submitted are necessarily outstanding.

In making an important decision for the award of a degree, we often ask ourselves, "How can you dare to fail a candidate?" This deep-rooted custom is derived from a combination of sentiment and manners and has tarnished university competitiveness as well as producing incompetent scholars and scientists.
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/07/01/200407010011.asp

Rotten to the Core?
Transparency International's "Corruption Perceptions Index 2003" lists Korea 10 places lower than what it was last year, meaning the country ranked 50th. According to a recent survey, as many as 90 percent of Korea's youth think they live in a country that's corrupt, and a considerable number of them say they're ready to join the club if the occasions calls for it later in life. Our society has become rotten to the core.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200310/200310080034.html

Foreigners Experience Difficulties in Living in Korea
"Even though Korea has achieved some degree of globalization in going abroad, it has still a long way to go for globalization in embracing foreigners inward," said foreigners residing in Korea. An official in the International Cooperation Division of Seoul City admitted, "The same complaints regarding visas, transportation, education, and environment are raised every year without being solved, due to the lack of cooperation from government agencies involved and their passive attitudes."
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448

For Housing Rentals, Foreigners Easy Victims
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200308/kt2003082818233111970.htm

Discrimination plagues migrant children
"Schools that foreign children attend will have to develop a curriculum of international understanding. An understanding of foreign countries and mutual respect will help solve the problem."
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200404/25/200404252243110879900090409041.html

Discrimination
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200212/200212250002.html

[Real Reality]

negotiate
v. negotiated, negotiating, negotiates
v. intr.
To confer with another or others in order to come to terms or reach an agreement: "It is difficult to negotiate where neither will trust" (Samuel Johnson).

v. tr.
1. To arrange or settle by discussion and mutual agreement: negotiate a contract.
2.
a. To transfer title to or ownership of (a promissory note, for example) to another party by delivery or by delivery and endorsement in return for value received.
b. To sell or discount (assets or securities, for example).
3.
a. To succeed in going over or coping with: negotiate a sharp curve.
b. To succeed in accomplishing or managing: negotiate a difficult musical passage.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=negotiate

negociate
v
1: be successful; achieve a goal; "She succeeded in persuading us all"; "I managed to carry the box upstairs"; "She pulled it off, even though we never thought her capable of it"; "The pianist negociated the difficult runs" [syn: pull off, bring off, carry off, manage] [ant: fail]
2: sell or discount; "negociate securities"
3: transfer by endorsement to another in return for value received; "negociate a bond"
4: succeed in passing through, around, or over; "The hiker negociated the high mountain pass"
5: confer with another in order to come to terms or reach an agreement; "The parties negociated all night"
6: discuss the terms of an arrangement; "They negotiated the sale of the house"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=negociate

[nev]

Good Lord.

Real Reality - half-man, half-vast computer database, spitting out endless information like a crazed robot with Tourette's.

[skinhead]

Is it time to get out the old 'Korean Foreign Teachers Union' idea again. Haven't seen much about it for years now. Who was that advocate poster around 2000/2001 who was seriously trying to light a flame under the vets' arses here?

[hellofaniceguy]

It won't work...teacher's union. Too many come and go every year and besides...I don't think the majority of the ESL teachers in korea would have the guts to stand up against the man.
If that sounds sarcastic...it is. It would take a lot of protesting from foreigners to make things better for all in the ESL world in korea.
And most won't.
What is a better idea is just don't sign!! If schools can't get teachers...well, you get the point. I will admit that over the years, it is getting better...slowly. Not as many complaints as the "old" days.

[chronicpride]

[skinhead]

[jajdude]

Agreed. "helloofaniceguy" makes some good points. No one should take less than 2m these days for full-time unless it is a real slacker of a job.

[Real Reality]

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