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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Read more about Steam and you will see why this petition is a bunch of crap. I admit it's not perfect, but it's the future of software, and it hurts.
Due to the people who download games instead of paying for them, this is the way most software will be delivered in the future.
Some points:
1. "we have to identify online on STEAM anytime we want to play the game"
This simply isn't true. It's called "offline mode" and I use it a lot.If you play HL2, this is a lie. If you play CS:S, then it's true, but who cares? You bought the game and it's a very discreet validation, so no worries, right? You are already online, so....?
2. "that the server needs minutes, sometimes more than half an hour to identify us as a gamer with a legal copy "
Perhaps in one in a thousand cases. I'm in Korea, halfway around the world, and have never waited more than 20 seconds.
3. "people with an 56kb modem need 47 hours to download more than 500MB of game files before one can start a game "
What kind of fool wouldn't expect that wait on a 56k modem? Who tries to download a game with one? Who still has one? A really poor complaint...
4. ..."(the information about the need for an available Internet connection is well hidden)"
But it's there. Look at all EULAs...is there anything blatant in any of them? They are written in obscure, cryptic languages that nobody reads, then acts surprised when the things stated in them actually happen. So Valve is a company who seeks profit and doesn't want to get ripped off....what do people think? There is a misperception among gamers that the creators of games are "cool" and "just like me", so they should be "cool" and act "just like I would, man...I would give it away to the followers"
Well, newsflash...they aren't just like anyone...they are rich and talented, something the average guy isn't. They spend years on one title and don't want it ripped off. Anyone would behave the same. People have really messed-up conceptions about what software is and why we shouldn't pay for it.
5. "that users who cannot afford the necessary Internet connection have to use "No CD" cracks, which will allow you to run a game without the Internet connection, and are being pushed into the illegal scene because of that "
This is pathetic. If you play HL2, you can use offline mode after validating the game ONCE with Valve.Offline mode needs no connection at all. If you want to play CS:S, then you have a net connection....what was the complaint again? The latest patch includes a NO-CD function.
6. "- many players cannot start STEAM, and therefore not play the game, because their Internet provider does not support the necessary protocols"
Maybe in Java. If you can't deal with the STEAM protocols, then you can't play the game. This is Valve's fault? Move, or unfortunately, live with it.
7. "that you can make your game permanently unusable for us customers if you desire to do so, because if you disable, dissolve or disconnect STEAM, the game can no longer be played "
Like I said...welcome to the future, hackers and freeloaders. Hurts to be on the recieving end. Now you know how software writers have felt for years.
8. "the additional Internet traffic we have to pay to play the game. Since there is always a client running in the background, additional costs can be as high as $30,- a month for players with an 56kb modem "
Same answer as point number 5. If you play HL2, "offline mode". If you want to play CS:S, did you expect to do it without any internet traffic increase? It is an 'online game'.....
9. " that European customers have to pay twice as much money for the game as other customers around the globe "
Blame their governments. The Korean version is cheap.
10. " the missing support on the valve-homepage for the problems regarding Half Life 2. "
There is wealth of support for both HL2 and Steam....really, more than many other games out there.
The last section, rife with 13-year-old spelling mistakes and hacker mentality, isn't worth commenting on. It's a pathetic begging for allowing people to use pirated copies and circumvent all security features.
This "petition" is a joke and does a disservice to people with real issues with Steam. Had it been well-written with actual problems instead of whinges, it may have held some water. It won't fly, nor float. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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You've brought many good points; However, I do take issue with a few of them:
| Demophobe wrote: |
1. "we have to identify online on STEAM anytime we want to play the game"
This simply isn't true. It's called "offline mode" and I use it a lot.If you play HL2, this is a lie. If you play CS:S, then it's true, but who cares? You bought the game and it's a very discreet validation, so no worries, right? You are already online, so....?
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Actually, there were 2 times my internet connection went down (problems with the ISP) and Steam offline mode didn't work- I believe it's due to my security settings... but WTF? I have to compromise my online security settings to be able to play this game offline?
| Quote: |
2. "that the server needs minutes, sometimes more than half an hour to identify us as a gamer with a legal copy "
Perhaps in one in a thousand cases. I'm in Korea, halfway around the world, and have never waited more than 20 seconds.
3. "people with an 56kb modem need 47 hours to download more than 500MB of game files before one can start a game "
What kind of fool wouldn't expect that wait on a 56k modem? Who tries to download a game with one? Who still has one? A really poor complaint... |
Demo, I think you're forgetting that there are a lot of people still on dial-up in North America- it seemed a valid complaint to me. You can't choose to skip the updates/downloads- they happen when you run the game whether you want them or not.
| Quote: |
4. ..."(the information about the need for an available Internet connection is well hidden)"
But it's there. Look at all EULAs...is there anything blatant in any of them? They are written in obscure, cryptic languages that nobody reads, then acts surprised when the things stated in them actually happen. So Valve is a company who seeks profit and doesn't want to get ripped off....what do people think? There is a misperception among gamers that the creators of games are "cool" and "just like me", so they should be "cool" and act "just like I would, man...I would give it away to the followers"
Well, newsflash...they aren't just like anyone...they are rich and talented, something the average guy isn't. They spend years on one title and don't want it ripped off. Anyone would behave the same. People have really messed-up conceptions about what software is and why we shouldn't pay for it. |
That's your answer? It's in the EULA?
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7. "that you can make your game permanently unusable for us customers if you desire to do so, because if you disable, dissolve or disconnect STEAM, the game can no longer be played "
Like I said...welcome to the future, hackers and freeloaders. Hurts to be on the recieving end. Now you know how software writers have felt for years. |
And as customers, we should just sit back and be content? I think the petition is on the right track here- to register the displeasure of excess controls put upon paying customers. We all know why Valve has gone ballistic and paranoid over security- it's not just because of pirating; It's a company mind-set that came about because their own company LAN was not properly secured, leading to the most publicized single incident of software theft to date. They were lax, and now they've gone overboard and customers are paying for it.
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| This "petition" is a joke and does a disservice to people with real issues with Steam. Had it been well-written with actual problems instead of whinges, it may have held some water. It won't fly, nor float.[/b] |
Yes I have to agree with you here; It probably was written by a 13 year old. It's sad that the petition probably won't be effective because there most definitely ARE some valid concerns here- I for one am not at all pleased with the whole steam concept: I don't want updates downloaded without my control, I don't want another program running in the background in order to play a game, and I don't want the hassle of figuring out why my off-line status won't work.
I'm glad you've had no problems, but I'm one of those who have had some, and apparently I'm not the only one. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Ok...yes, many people are still on dial-up...so they shouldn't expect a long wait when downloading an entire game?!? When I was on dial-up, I wouldn't even have bothered trying to download a 500MB file, let alone an entire 4GB game.
Am I mistaken? There was a 500MB patch after the fact? If so, then yeah, that sucks....part of the deal I guess. I don't recall recieving any 500MB patch, and I don't think my connection is that fast; so fast I wouldn't have noticed a 500MB download. I had a flawless install/validation on 3 machines...never noticed a big update. A few small ones, but nothing that big.
"Offline mode" will only work if you check "save data on this machine" in the steam options.
If you don't like needing an internet connection being in the EULA, how about in the minimum requirements on the box?
1.2 GHz Processor
256MB RAM
DirectX 7 capable graphics card
Windows 2000/XP/ME/98
Mouse
Keyboard
Internet Connection
Steam is part of the game. You can't have one without the other. I can't say that I like that or dislike it....it's the way it is. Why would you want to dissolve Steam?
Anyways, Steam isn't about Valve's freak-out over security, it's about fighting piracy. Like it or not, the current state of the internet has brought this on....people like I used to be and many still are. Downloading anything and everything for free. Who can blame Valve for this? Software writers fighting back....who didn't see this coming?
I don't want to argue....if things hadn't gone smoothly, perhaps I would be speaking differently. I doubt it though, or would like to think that rational thought would prevail over emotional rantings. It's the first of it's kind, and it's flawed. Just as anything is in it's infancy.
The method is here to stay, however. Get used to certain things such as validation/authentification, auto-updates (which help security for the devs) and online content delivery, which will (and did in HL2's case) save us money.
500 users out of the millions who have the game is nothing for a company to really get worried about. They continue to refine Steam, and iron out these problems. I still believe that many of the people complaining tried to use downloaded copies, no-CD cracks or are the crackers, angry because this one is proving a tough nut to crack. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
| Ok...yes, many people are still on dial-up...so they shouldn't expect a long wait when downloading an entire game?!? When I was on dial-up, I wouldn't even have bothered trying to download a 500MB file, let alone an entire 4GB game. |
I realize that you downloaded the game, but most of us bought the game in the store. However, the store-bought games run under the same process as the downloaded game. From your post it seems that you might not be aware of this.
Fictional 'average-joe' is in Walmart:
"Wow HL2! I've been waiting for this! System requirements... let's see here, yup, got em all; Hmmm, says I must have an internet connection... I only have dial-up but who cares, I just want to play the solo game, I don't care about the multiplayer..."
Before Joe can play the game he discovers that the damned thing is automatically going to download the latest update for him whether he wants/needs it or not. Say hello to waiting a LONG time before Joe ever gets to play the game. The box doesn't say anything about being able to handle a couple hundred MBs download, and Joe can't play until the download is complete. He also can't return the game since he cracked the seal on the jewel case....
| Quote: |
| Am I mistaken? There was a 500MB patch after the fact? If so, then yeah, that sucks....part of the deal I guess. I don't recall recieving any 500MB patch, and I don't think my connection is that fast; so fast I wouldn't have noticed a 500MB download. I had a flawless install/validation on 3 machines...never noticed a big update. A few small ones, but nothing that big. |
I think there was a big patch, but 500MB might have been an exaggeration... Certainly I've been through a total of about 15min of updates since I first installed and ran the game and I have adsl. 15 min adsl, I shudderto think of what that is in dial-up. And Steam just runs, if you hit the cancel button in the Steam pop-up you're not just cancelling the downloading of the update but also your playing a session of the game. Steam never asks "Would you like to check for updates? Yes? No?"
"There is a 50MB update for Steam, a 75MB update for HL2, and a 30MB update for CS. Select which updates you would like to download, or select "none" to continue your HL session." This is a flaw, something they should have done from the start. Hopefully they will fix it. I think it's valid for customers to point this out to Valve. The petition may not be the best way to address the problem, but that doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist.
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| "Offline mode" will only work if you check "save data on this machine" in the steam options. |
Did that and it didn't work. Either the Steam component here has bugs or my security settings prevent this from operating correctly- either way, I'm not a happy camper.
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| If you don't like needing an internet connection being in the EULA, how about in the minimum requirements on the box? |
You're missing the point here. We're back to type of internet connection- it doesn't say "must be prepared to download large update files- 56kbps dial up is not recommended". I hate to sound like some dinosaur champion of 56k or something, but the truth is that I know more than a few people still using 56k at home, and my region has easy and cheap cable and dsl access. I imagine that in more rural regions even more people still rely on dial-up.
| Quote: |
Steam is part of the game. You can't have one without the other. I can't say that I like that or dislike it....it's the way it is. Why would you want to dissolve Steam?
Anyways, Steam isn't about Valve's freak-out over security, it's about fighting piracy. Like it or not, the current state of the internet has brought this on....people like I used to be and many still are. Downloading anything and everything for free. Who can blame Valve for this? Software writers fighting back....who didn't see this coming?
I don't want to argue....if things hadn't gone smoothly, perhaps I would be speaking differently. I doubt it though, or would like to think that rational thought would prevail over emotional rantings. It's the first of it's kind, and it's flawed. Just as anything is in it's infancy.
The method is here to stay, however. Get used to certain things such as validation/authentification, auto-updates (which help security for the devs) and online content delivery, which will (and did in HL2's case) save us money.
500 users out of the millions who have the game is nothing for a company to really get worried about. They continue to refine Steam, and iron out these problems. I still believe that many of the people complaining tried to use downloaded copies, no-CD cracks or are the crackers, angry because this one is proving a tough nut to crack. |
I am at a loss to understand how online authentication every time you want to play prevents piracy, IF the 'play off-line' really functions as promised. All it does is keep pirated copies locked out of multiplayer game use. and if that's all it does, I have to say Blizzard's Battlenet solution is far far better. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Valve have no idea about patches. They are written and released as necessary, and thus cannot be forseen. I see your point though.
I think the patches were critical, so one is better off with them, but an option would be good.
As for the offline mode, it has worked on all 3 of my systems, and all of my friends as well. Must be a config problem on your end.
The authentification system doesn't just lock out pirates from online play, it validates the serial number of the game and the I.P. it's attatched to. Once the I.P. and game serial have been authenticated, offline mode is avaliable. It prevents multiple I.P.s using the same serial, for offline and online. You can't use offline mode until the numbers are verified and logged.
In order for offline to work, a hacker must have a steam account. This prevents piracy. Pretty simple and it's working very well.
Yes, I am missing the point about the retail copy of the game. A mate here bought it and suffered zero....he was up and playing within 15 minutes of installation. I guess that led me to believe that the patches were small.
And 56k.....gosh, even my retired parents are on DSL...I thought the lowest speed these days was cable...guess my lack of trips home is showing...  |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
| And 56k.....gosh, even my retired parents are on DSL...I thought the lowest speed these days was cable...guess my lack of trips home is showing... |
As I said, I don't want to be defending 56K or anything, but a little bit of user input/control over the updates is an easy solution- I can't believe they didn't add that. |
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the saint
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Location: not there yet...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
And 56k.....gosh, even my retired parents are on DSL...I thought the lowest speed these days was cable...guess my lack of trips home is showing... |
... well don't head over to the UK for a holiday or anything. Although Broadband is getting there, the majority are still on dialup... |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
The authentification system doesn't just lock out pirates from online play, it validates the serial number of the game and the I.P. it's attatched to. Once the I.P. and game serial have been authenticated, offline mode is avaliable. It prevents multiple I.P.s using the same serial, for offline and online. You can't use offline mode until the numbers are verified and logged.
In order for offline to work, a hacker must have a steam account. This prevents piracy. Pretty simple and it's working very well.
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??????????OK SO I will end up looking like a dumbass because I have no idea what the underlying issues are and haven't read anything about STEAM as I am not much of a gamer but I know a bit about computers????????
Having said that...I think the explanation quoted doesn't explain it properly...IP addresses are mostly dynamically assigned...how is it going to verify my IP address work.(unless checking for multiple concurrent IP's with the same account)..MAC address perhaps...serial number maybe...authentication code likely...but IP addy?
I don't get it..... |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Before Joe can play the game he discovers that the damned thing is automatically going to download the latest update for him whether he wants/needs it or not. Say hello to waiting a LONG time before Joe ever gets to play the game. |
And if Joe is smart he'll do a search on Google and be directed to these fine people or these fine people. Then he'll say, "wait a minute... What are warez?"
Your attempt at limiting piracy has just driven an honest customer towards piracy. |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
As for the offline mode, it has worked on all 3 of my systems, and all of my friends as well. Must be a config problem on your end. |
That is not an answer. Any time you inconvenience/screw over the customer you have failed.
Valve already had a good anti-piracy measure in place, it's called the CD key. No valid key, you don't get to play online. Simple, effective, and it makes most people want to buy a legit copy. The only reason people are putting up with Steam is because of HL2, were it implemented for any other mediocre game out there people just wouldn't tolerate it. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Hank Scorpio wrote: |
| Demophobe wrote: |
As for the offline mode, it has worked on all 3 of my systems, and all of my friends as well. Must be a config problem on your end. |
That is not an answer. Any time you inconvenience/screw over the customer you have failed.
Valve already had a good anti-piracy measure in place, it's called the CD key. No valid key, you don't get to play online. Simple, effective, and it makes most people want to buy a legit copy. The only reason people are putting up with Steam is because of HL2, were it implemented for any other mediocre game out there people just wouldn't tolerate it. |
HL2 was a single-player game. HL2 Deathmatch was thrown in after the fact, and isn't good enough to be offered as a stand-alone product, let alone a motivator for purchase. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| turtlepi1 wrote: |
??????????OK SO I will end up looking like a dumbass because I have no idea what the underlying issues are and haven't read anything about STEAM as I am not much of a gamer but I know a bit about computers????????
Having said that...I think the explanation quoted doesn't explain it properly...IP addresses are mostly dynamically assigned...how is it going to verify my IP address work.(unless checking for multiple concurrent IP's with the same account)..MAC address perhaps...serial number maybe...authentication code likely...but IP addy?
I don't get it..... |
Digital Rights Management (DRM) isn't to be gotten. Under the database protection laws, they don't have to tell and never will tell exactly how it works.
I said it was an I.P. based system, which even in the face of your objection/misunderstanding, is still plausable. Even with a "dynamic IP", (one of which I have, but it hasn't changed in 8 months), the changes that make your IP dynamic are slight, as your ISP is assigned a certain "block" of IP addresses from which one is given to each customer. This can be further narrowed down by which city you live in, which block, which building. In the end, your "dynamic IP" isn't so dynamic....perhaps a one or two digit change at the very end of the IP string is all that may change. After all, there are a limited number of addressses to choose from, and certain portions of the ~12 digit string will/can never change.
Bottom line: Even with a dynamic IP, one can easily tell almost exactly where you are coming from.
Now, you are absolutely correct in what you say, and my theory is improbable.
Now, let's talk hardware hash. The process often uses information about the specific configuration of the hardware on which the software runs, hashing it with the identification number specific to the product's license. This is a method of control, and is the basis for MS with WinXP activation, but it is also deeply flawed, as anyone who has a illegal copy of WinXP can testify to.
Or we can look at digital watermarking: Allows to add hidden copyright or other verification messages to content. The addition of the hidden message to the content does not restrict its use, but it provides a mechanism to track the content to the original owner.
All of these have flaws that have been exploited already, after their complete dissection by civilians; a.k.a. hackers.
So, what does Valve use? Who knows.
If I had the answer to that, I may well be on the front page of this place:
http://www.drmblog.com/
Probably a combination of these and other methods, constructed to cover all the bases, and hopefully with some that cover the others' weaknesses; some failsafes. These will all be checked, I would hope, in an effort to vidicate the people who say they were victimized by Valves' purging of accounts, and those having general Steam problems.
I was wrong to put forward such a simple and flawed idea, but fundamentally, it doesn't matter to the discussion. Many people are having problems with Valve's system, many more are having no problems, and Valve and the general community of developers consider it to be a resounding success so far.
There will always be problems with something for someone that will need to be addressed in tech. One person buys a Geforce card and it works effortlessly. Another buys the same card, defect-free, yet something on their system causes nothing but BSODs and crashes.
I believe that one cannot, in a Windows environment, make a perfect piece of hardware/software; one that will behave the same for everyone. There are just too amny variables that must be considered and accounted for. This is such a unfathomable undertaking, that companies have an acceptable margin for failure.
Add to this that Steam is an altogether new thing, and we arrive where we are now. The success rate has been incredible, better than Valve thought and as for control, their scheme has shut down at least 50,000 certain fakes out there.
Whether or not the people crying foul in Valve's grand sweep really were legit owners, time will tell. As for people having problems, not due to having an illegal copy, the numbers, comparatively speaking, are still low.
The DRM issue is a detailed, intricate maze and I have only touched on it here....there is enough to fill a library on the subject.
If you do "get it", then you will be wealthy and famous. Many fame-seeking, talented hackers are spending their days trying to "get it", so far, without success. |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
HL2 was a single-player game. HL2 Deathmatch was thrown in after the fact, and isn't good enough to be offered as a stand-alone product, let alone a motivator for purchase. |
Puhleaze. You're actually going to try to make that argument when the entire reason the first Half-Life had it's longevity was because of all it's mods; Day of Defeat, Counterstrike, Natural Selection, etc, etc, etc? To play any of those you need a valid CD key, and most people bought Half-Life more for those games than they ever did simply for the single player game or any of the official Valve produced multiplayer games (Team Fortress). |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Say what you will. HL1 and HL2 are very strong single-player games with loads of replayability.
I think lots of people don't know or care about the mods, or online play for that matter.
Just my opinion.
As for your original response to my post in this thread, I don't work for Valve, and don't need to provide you or anyone else with answers.
By his own admission, Bulsajo may have some security settings too high on his system. This is what I was referencing. |
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