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Toby
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Wedded Bliss
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 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:58 pm Post subject: "..had had...." What's the rule? |
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I had a good day.
I had had a good day.
How can I explain the difference?
We slept well because we had had a good day.
We slept well because we had a good day.
Both make sense, but why different?
Thanks. |
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Holyjoe
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: Away for a cuppa
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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A quick internet search...
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http://onlinenglish.org/_cusudi/0000001e.htm
"Had had" is an example of the past perfect tense. The past perfect is formed by using the helping verb "had" and the past participle of the main verb. Example 1: "He had eaten all the apples before I came home." Repeating the word "had" when using the present perfect is correct if the main verb is "to have." Example 2: "He finally finished the project, but he had had a difficult time with the workers." In this example, the first "had" is the helping verb to form the past perfect, and the second "had" is the main verb with the meaning of "have a difficult time." However, you need to be very careful about the use of the past perfect. It is usually used to create a "flashback" effect when telling a story. Example 3: "The police came in the room. They saw a dead body on the floor, but could not find many clues." (here, the writer is telling a story in the past and so uses the simple past tense) "The knife had been thrown away, and the murderer had cleaned up the blood" (here, the writer is creating a flashback -- going back to an earlier time in the story, before the police came in. Thus, the writer uses the past perfect.) The past perfect tense is almost never used in business writing or technical writing. So, unless you are writing a story, you should NOT use the past perfect tense. |
Here's a puzzle (and try not to search on the net to solve it  )
Punctuate the following to make a grammatically correct sentence:
Ann while Bob had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher |
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J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: "..had had...." What's the rule? |
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Right. So in examining your specific examples:
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I had a good day.
I had had a good day
How can I explain the difference? |
"I had had a good day" (Past Perfect) should follow a sentence mentioning something which occurred before it. For example: "Last night, I got overcharged at the restaurant. I had had a good day, so I didn't want to spoil it by making a fuss." "Had a good day" happened before "got overcharged", but was mentioned after it, so Past Perfect should be used to make it clear that it happened before, not after.
"I had a good day" can be used as a less formal way of saying the same thing, as Past Simple is often used informally in place of Past Perfect. It could also be used as just a regular Past Simple sentence: "Yesterday was fun. I went to the park. Then I went for ice cream. I had a good day."
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We slept well because we had had a good day.
We slept well because we had a good day.
Both make sense, but why different? |
We should use Past Perfect with this sentence because it's correct grammar (because "had a good day" happened before "slept", but was mentioned after it). However, in speaking, it's more common not to use Past Perfect, so it sounds more natural with one "had" in an informal context. |
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Wisco Kid
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Location: Changwon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Here's a puzzle (and try not to search on the net to solve it )
Punctuate the following to make a grammatically correct sentence:
Ann while Bob had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher |
"Ann while Bob had had had had had had had had had had" had a better effect on the teacher. |
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mishlert
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Location: On the 3rd rock from the sun
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ok Wisco, I'll give it a try.
Ann, while Bob had had, had had, had had, had had, had had, had a better effect on the teacher. |
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Intrepid
Joined: 13 May 2004
Location: Yongin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:18 am Post subject: Generation gap |
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I was in a Discourse Analysis class during my MA program last year this time. I'm in my 30s, as were several of the other students. Most, however, were in their early twenties. When the past perfect came up the prof put a sentence on the board:
"If I would have had money I would have bought a car."
He said: 20s students--what do you think of this sentence?
It's fine, they all agreed.
He went on: 30s and over students?
Several of us were English teachers--you can imagine the frothy apoplexy of the more pedantic in the group.
Bottom line--the past perfect, at least in average conversation, is dying. Perhaps the renovated SAT will resuscitate this dying tense.
Like Strunk, like White, I won't hang on to the past perfect out of nostalgia--I'll keep it because it's important: it makes certain temporal contrasts possible. I find myself doubling my past tenses in Korean, a la the past perfect. Future perfect? Try explaining to your students why they need THAT. |
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yemanja
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Future perfect? Try explaining to your students why they need THAT. |
I will have explained that to my students by the time they have to take their TOEFL test. |
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Ihavenolips
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I try to avoid "had had". It is a quirk of mine to never use the same word twice in the same sentence (excluding noun articles). It seems redundant. There is usually a better way to write the sentence or find another vocabulary word that will work. |
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MixtecaMike
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Largest Train Station in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ann, while Bob had had 'had had,' had had 'had.'
'Had had' had had a better effect on the teacher.
Ann's work: had
Bob's work: had had
Teacher prefers Bob's work.
If mixtecamike had had a life outside of his computer he wouldn't have had time to reslove this perplexing punctuation puzzle. |
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