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Use of �� versus ��/��? Help?

 
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HamuHamu



Joined: 01 May 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:01 pm    Post subject: Use of �� versus ��/��? Help? Reply with quote

I was always taught that ��/�� is the "topic marker" which from reading sentences and seeing the use of it, I figured was the same as the subject marker. Now I am learning that �� is actually a subject marker, and �� as the topic marker is different.

Can you language experts explain the difference to me in some simple terms? How is the topic marker different from the subject marker?
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Sage Monkey



Joined: 01 Nov 2004

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Use of �� versus ��/��? Help? Reply with quote

HamuHamu wrote:
I was always taught that ��/�� is the "topic marker" which from reading sentences and seeing the use of it, I figured was the same as the subject marker. Now I am learning that �� is actually a subject marker, and �� as the topic marker is different.

Can you language experts explain the difference to me in some simple terms? How is the topic marker different from the subject marker?


Actually, they come in pairs of ��/�� and ��/��.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote a little bit about the two particles in one of my lessons on my home page last year. Nobody's given any feedback on this lesson (#3) but maybe it'll be of some help.



Quote:
��/��
This particle makes the word that comes before it the subject. Think of it as 'as for (the word I just said)...'
���� �ѱ�����̿��� - I am Korean. ��(me)��(as for me) �ѱ����(Korean)�̿���(am). The verb comes at the end.
�׻���� ������ ���������? That person's the president of Hyundai, isn't he/she? �׻��(that person)�� (as for) ������ ����� (president of Hyundai)��(is)��(isn't it?).

��/��
This is the second subject particle. The difference between �� and �� will be explained in a bit.

���� �׷��� �����߾� - I was the one who thought that. ��(I)��(I am the subject) �׷��� (in that way) �����߾� (Thought).


�� and �� are better explained by showing how they differ as opposed to trying to explain them one by one. Here is the difference between them:

�� places more importance on what comes afterward. We use �� to introduce a subject, and then talk about it. �� places more importance on what comes before it. When using ��, less information comes after the �� than before.
for example:
���� �ѱ����̿��� (I'm Korean. As for me, I'm Korean.)
���� �ѱ����̿��� (I'm the Korean. You guys wanted to know who the Korean was; well, it's yours truly.)
By the way, �� changes to �� when coming before ��. That's a rule.
���� ���߾�? - Who said that? Here the listener wants to know who. Therefore one would answer by saying, ���� ���߾� - I was the one that said it. We already know that someone has said something, but didn't know who. Therefore the person who has done the action is what is important and we use ��.

Also, �� is used when one is directly experiencing or feeling something, whereas �� is used when talking about them with a certain detachment. For example,
Ŀ�ǰ� �߰ſ�! - the coffee's hot!
Ŀ�Ǵ� �߰ſ� ��ü�Դϴ� - coffee is a hot liquid. Once again there is generally more information after a ��.
��, ���� ����! - Wow, the moon's beautiful!
���� ������ �����̴� - The moon is the earth's satellite.
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gi66y



Joined: 15 Aug 2003

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's complicated. Sad

After three years of studying Korean I still get tripped up a lot with proper usage, but it's not something to really worry about because even when you say ��/�� where you should have said ��/�� people will still understand you. Smile

Rather than trying to remember all the rules, I think it's easier to try to remember it more in terms of grammar structure in sentences as you learn. ie: in these kind of sentences with this grammar use ��/�� and in those use ��/��.

I agree with Mithridates explanations and examples, but to complicate things further ��/�� can also be used in place of the object marker ��/�� or after other particles(��,����,����,etc.) for emphasis especially when contrasting things. Some books call it the "contrast marker" for this reason.
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