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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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 Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Then one person's "independence" and "resilience" is another's bigotry and xenophobia. |
Absolutely.
And it's outright hypocritical when one is trying to attract foreign interest and investment, etc. |
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Zenpickle
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Location: Anyang -- Bisan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Badmojo wrote: |
Our voice doesn't matter here, bud. Neither do our opinions.
Get over yourself or go home. |
Perhaps I should explain myself a bit to you. I've been here going on five years. I have a wife (Korean, if it matters) and a daughter. I earn a very nice wage for what I do, and therefore intend to remain in Korea. I don't know about yourself, but I'm not masochistic enough to wish that many Koreans' perception of your typical white foreigner remains the same.
The old "if you don't like it then leave" retort is infantile and ignorant. I suppose I should pack my bags now because I (god forbid!) happen to criticize a blatantly sensational and misinformed news expose.
Again, some of us have families here. We're not all drunken frat boys who couldn't give two turds how our community perceives us.
Sparkles*_* |
I'm sort of on the same page as you. Even though I think that protests would not have the desired effect and would be the logistical equivalent of herding cats who'd rather be playing pool in Itaewon, I agree that the "if you don't like it, then leave" response is immensely ignorant and childish.
I say childish because it's just the basic adolescent idea of avoiding solving a problem by running away from it. It's pathetically fatalistic, and you get that response anywhere, even in your home country.
"Love it, or leave it. Yeehaw!"
Screw that. If I see a problem, I try to fix it. I'm not just floating through life and then dying. That's cowardly.
You are justified in getting ticked and wanting to do something about it.
(Damn, I miss working in politics.) |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Zenpickle wrote: |
I'm sort of on the same page as you. Even though I think that protests would not have the desired effect... |
Very true. But I don't think we, especially those of us here to stay indefinitely, should remain mute while the Korean media continues their woefully-biased portrayal of foreign teachers, and the fear/animosity it creates continues to fester.
How about a sticker campaign then? Something like "have you hugged a white person today?"
Sparkles*_* |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:09 am Post subject: |
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*peers into crystal ball, and sees...an image of a mod watching and waiting for this thread to derail and be yanked and tossed into the corner on top of an accumulating pile of related threads on this issue.*
I'll throw in my chips to say that the hammer falls somewhere between the 6th-7th pages. |
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inkoreaforgood
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Location: Inchon
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Cool, a thread I started being yanked.
Bad me, bad.
As far as protests or change goes, I think the best thing for us lifers to do is explain our views when this topic comes up. Tell people we know that there are all kinds of idiots in the world, and they choose to make things rough for the rest of us. Don't believe everything you see on tv. Tell them to use the dried peanut between your ears, and actually think about what others tell you is the "absolute truth".
Will the mods really yank my thread?!?!?
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JacktheCat
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:59 am Post subject: |
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If you think western ESLers have it bad in Korea ...
Just think about what the Pakistani\Thai\etc. factory workers have to go through.
We have it pretty good compared to them. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
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The Koreans are not interested in catching and stopping illegal teachers.
They are interested in talking about it. Why do I know? Because I started the first "degree checking" business in Korea. I get no calls. The advertising is good, its here on Dave's but I get no calls. Well, I got one.
Sorry I lied. |
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Zenpickle
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Location: Anyang -- Bisan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Zenpickle wrote: |
I'm sort of on the same page as you. Even though I think that protests would not have the desired effect... |
Very true. But I don't think we, especially those of us here to stay indefinitely, should remain mute while the Korean media continues their woefully-biased portrayal of foreign teachers, and the fear/animosity it creates continues to fester.
How about a sticker campaign then? Something like "have you hugged a white person today?"
Sparkles*_* |
Yeah, I hit "Submit" without finishing my thought. That's ADD for you.
I'm usually all for protests, considering I organized protests and political campaigns before I came here. I was thinking some letter writing would have a more desired effect. But I'm the first to admit my naivetee on the impact. It's not a matter to have a big impact but to at least make your voice and presence known. |
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Badmojo
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Location: I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Badmojo wrote: |
| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Badmojo wrote: |
Protests?
Come on.
If you're so offended, the only way you can protest this is by leaving the country.
At the end of the day, Korea is for Koreans. They're going to do whatever they want here. Slag teachers, have anti-US demonstrations, piss on foreigners, treat them well, whatever, who knows? They're gonna live on in the Korean way.
As for me, I'm not offended. I don't care.
I like it too much here!  |
Let's say a Jamaican in Toronto raped a white woman. And, after that, the media wouldn't stop portraying Jamaicans as murderers, rapists and drug dealers. Would you disagree with the Jamaican community if they protested the media's portrayal of them? Fact is, the Korean media has been painting foreign English teachers in a bad light. A LOT, recently. Of course, there are some less-than-desireable teachers here, but most are decent, good-natured people.
And if you think this will be forgotten in a few days, or that this isn't a big deal to your average Korean, you're sorely underestimating the media's ability to manipulate the masses.
Sparkles*_* |
Okay.
And if you don't like what this place is going to become, then leave.
You can't stand being portrayed in a bad light? Leave.
Korea is not Toronto. We are not Jamaicans in Canada. Believe me, if those generalizations happened in Canada, there would be a severe backlash in the media. The media would rise against itself. It would defend the Jamaicans. Heads would roll.
Our voice doesn't matter here, bud. Neither do our opinions.
Get over yourself or go home. |
Perhaps I should explain myself a bit to you. I've been here going on five years. I have a wife (Korean, if it matters) and a daughter. I earn a very nice wage for what I do, and therefore intend to remain in Korea. I don't know about yourself, but I'm not masochistic enough to wish that many Koreans' perception of your typical white foreigner remains the same.
The old "if you don't like it then leave" retort is infantile and ignorant. I suppose I should pack my bags now because I (god forbid!) happen to criticize a blatantly sensational and misinformed news expose.
Again, some of us have families here. We're not all drunken frat boys who couldn't give two turds how our community perceives us.
Sparkles*_* |
I'm not saying don't criticize anything.
By all means, criticize away.
Hold rallies, change the system, take it to the streets.
I just think it will accomplish as much as the Koreans did when they held their rally denouncing American atrocities in Iraq. That's to say, nothing.
However, Blind Willie is right. There is something you can do. Teach your kids what's right. That's where you make a difference. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Badmojo wrote: |
| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Badmojo wrote: |
| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Badmojo wrote: |
Protests?
Come on.
If you're so offended, the only way you can protest this is by leaving the country.
At the end of the day, Korea is for Koreans. They're going to do whatever they want here. Slag teachers, have anti-US demonstrations, piss on foreigners, treat them well, whatever, who knows? They're gonna live on in the Korean way.
As for me, I'm not offended. I don't care.
I like it too much here! |
Let's say a Jamaican in Toronto raped a white woman. And, after that, the media wouldn't stop portraying Jamaicans as murderers, rapists and drug dealers. Would you disagree with the Jamaican community if they protested the media's portrayal of them? Fact is, the Korean media has been painting foreign English teachers in a bad light. A LOT, recently. Of course, there are some less-than-desireable teachers here, but most are decent, good-natured people.
And if you think this will be forgotten in a few days, or that this isn't a big deal to your average Korean, you're sorely underestimating the media's ability to manipulate the masses.
Sparkles*_* |
Okay.
And if you don't like what this place is going to become, then leave.
You can't stand being portrayed in a bad light? Leave.
Korea is not Toronto. We are not Jamaicans in Canada. Believe me, if those generalizations happened in Canada, there would be a severe backlash in the media. The media would rise against itself. It would defend the Jamaicans. Heads would roll.
Our voice doesn't matter here, bud. Neither do our opinions.
Get over yourself or go home. |
Perhaps I should explain myself a bit to you. I've been here going on five years. I have a wife (Korean, if it matters) and a daughter. I earn a very nice wage for what I do, and therefore intend to remain in Korea. I don't know about yourself, but I'm not masochistic enough to wish that many Koreans' perception of your typical white foreigner remains the same.
The old "if you don't like it then leave" retort is infantile and ignorant. I suppose I should pack my bags now because I (god forbid!) happen to criticize a blatantly sensational and misinformed news expose.
Again, some of us have families here. We're not all drunken frat boys who couldn't give two turds how our community perceives us.
Sparkles*_* |
I'm not saying don't criticize anything.
By all means, criticize away.
Hold rallies, change the system, take it to the streets.
I just think it will accomplish as much as the Koreans did when they held their rally denouncing American atrocities in Iraq. That's to say, nothing.
However, Blind Willie is right. There is something you can do. Teach your kids what's right. That's where you make a difference. |
Agreed 100% on the last part. I'm also teaching the little girl not to have a defeatist mindset, which is why I disagree 100% with what you've written prior.
Sparkles*_*
Sparkles*_* |
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ChooChooPongPong
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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I don't think a "protest" is what is needed. Fighting fire with fire just burns more bridges sometimes. Turning the other cheeck and taking the high road is what is needed...and maybe fighting fire with sickeningly sweet sugar might be the path to follow.
Swiss James is a positve example over at lostseouls.com. Volunteering with orphans and generally showing respect and not coming off derogatory when expressing his curiosirty re. Korean culture. If we all wore t-shirts with a proud positve (not combative) message on them and went around Seoul doing good deeds (picking up garbage, helping old ladies across the street, learning how to make kimchee in front of a TV crew), what would MBC do then? It would be more of a "happening" than a "protest." Did anyone see that deal with the naked K-girls spraying milk on eachother in Insadong to promote milk? Brilliant stuff! Imagine what Koreans would think if 100 plus waygooks marched through Jongro picking up garbage wearing T-shirts with the ABC's on them and some sort of postive slogan. Indeed, it would be be somewhat demeaning and poofy, but it has never been done before and it would really make Koreans stop and think.
In any case, I think its a time to be nice and just excuse things after the intial pizzed-off feeling fades. Mine has. But maybe its cus of the NyQuil I just dranked. |
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Zenpickle
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Location: Anyang -- Bisan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| ChooChooPongPong wrote: |
I don't think a "protest" is what is needed. Fighting fire with fire just burns more bridges sometimes. Turning the other cheeck and taking the high road is what is needed...and maybe fighting fire with sickeningly sweet sugar might be the path to follow.
Swiss James is a positve example over at lostseouls.com. Volunteering with orphans and generally showing respect and not coming off derogatory when expressing his curiosirty re. Korean culture. If we all wore t-shirts with a proud positve (not combative) message on them and went around Seoul doing good deeds (picking up garbage, helping old ladies across the street, learning how to make kimchee in front of a TV crew), what would MBC do then? It would be more of a "happening" than a "protest." Did anyone see that deal with the naked K-girls spraying milk on eachother in Insadong to promote milk? Brilliant stuff! Imagine what Koreans would think if 100 plus waygooks marched through Jongro picking up garbage wearing T-shirts with the ABC's on them and some sort of postive slogan. Indeed, it would be be somewhat demeaning and poofy, but it has never been done before and it would really make Koreans stop and think.
In any case, I think its a time to be nice and just excuse things after the intial pizzed-off feeling fades. Mine has. But maybe its cus of the NyQuil I just dranked. |
Okay, it's late at night, and I'm a bit delirious. But if you or anyone organized anything as nuts as that, count me in.  |
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Blind Willie
Joined: 05 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Badmojo wrote: |
| However, Blind Willie is right. |
Agreed 100% on the last part. |
Yeah! I rock! wh00t! |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| ChooChooPongPong wrote: |
I don't think a "protest" is what is needed. Fighting fire with fire just burns more bridges sometimes. Turning the other cheeck and taking the high road is what is needed...and maybe fighting fire with sickeningly sweet sugar might be the path to follow.
Swiss James is a positve example over at lostseouls.com. Volunteering with orphans and generally showing respect and not coming off derogatory when expressing his curiosirty re. Korean culture.
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As another poster has pointed out before, the American military has been doing volunteer work in Korea for years, and they haven't received any huge PR impact from it. The vocal minority who resent our presence here will *always* resent our presence, no matter how much we collectively smile.
The ESL industry in Korea has some major flaws in it, and the fact that it's gaining some negative press should not be a huge surprise. The fact that some xenophobes, and sensationalist media outlets might jump on the opportunity should be no surprise either.
Let's face it. The Korean public will only study English because they believe it's in their interest for their own and their children's future, not because we are nice, lovely people, who go around picking up garbage. It would be insincere to pretend we are all a bunch of English-teaching kindred spirits -- because we are obviously not -- and I don't think anyone in Korea ever thought we were.
We are all employed in Korea, by Koreans. Let them deal with the PR issues -- after all it's their business -- they can start by valuing and keeping decent quality teachers. As long as a 23-yr old fresh-college-grad bimbo is desired over someone older and with qualifications and experience, well, as I said before, Korea will get the education they demand.
Hurt pride aside -- and for most of us, I think that's what this really is about -- it's hard to disagree that this industry could use some serious change, and as the easiest targets, if change is going to happen at all, it's going to start with us. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ChooChooPongPong wrote: |
Turning the other cheeck and taking the high road is what is needed...and maybe fighting fire with sickeningly sweet sugar might be the path to follow.
....
It would be more of a "happening" than a "protest." Did anyone see that deal with the naked K-girls spraying milk on eachother in Insadong to promote milk? Brilliant stuff! |
Yes, that does sound brilliant. Count me in. |
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