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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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 Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:51 pm Post subject: Living together before marriage in Korea |
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I was in generally-more-progressive Tokyo for a while in the mid-90s, and there was enough of a stigma even then that the mixed couples I knew who were living together were still telling neighbours & employers that they were married when, in fact, they weren't. A decade later in Korea, to what degree is this the case?
I've had girls stay over for a few days, and in one instance a couple of weeks while their apartment was being remodelled. However, it was always on the Q.T. with their parents, their co-workers, and often even their best friends. I've met unmarried Western couples who lived together here and a few mixed couples, but the latter cases were without exception one of the following:
1) Korean guy & Western girl
2) Korean guy & gyopo girl
3) Gyopo guy & Western girl
3) Western guy & Korean girl with "unique circumstances" (divorced, from a messed up home, working in the "entertainment" industry, rebellious social iconoclast, or just plain lying to her parents down in Busan about her shacking up w/some dude)
In the West, your girlfriend moves in with you. Even when you're still both in university and neither is even contemplating marriage. It doesn't raise eyebrows anymore. You break up and she moves out, and it doesn't make her "damaged goods." In good old Korea, though, it's still a huge no-no to openly "live in sin."
T or F?
edited by mod team |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think a small part of it has to do with the fact that real estate here is sooooo expensive.
But in general the social changes that hit the west after second wave feminsim haven't really made it to asia yet. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| crazylemongirl wrote: |
| I think a small part of it has to do with the fact that real estate here is sooooo expensive. |
That sounds logical enough, but however expensive real estate may be, it doesn't seem to have halted the absolute EXPLOSION in the "nuclearisation" and Westernisation of housing/living patterns I have seen here. Number-One Sons moving out with their wives, unmarried children leaving their family homes, students & young single women in particular living on their own.
Yes, real estate prices here have soared to very high levels, but how has society reacted? By young Koreans staying home with mom & dad? Hardly. No, however bad the economy, however expensive the housing options, increasing numbers of young, single Koreans are demanding out of their parents' home and demanding in to their own places. Frumpy old boarding houses or other shared arrangements just won't do anymore, no siree. And if cost is an obstacle, it's only a temporary one, as construction companies build smaller and smaller living spaces (one-rooms, studios, officetels, goshiwons, etc.) to satisfy the demand.
In any case, I would think that high housing costs might even encourage unmarried couples to consider shacking up more. That they aren't in any great multitude hasn't anything to do with high rents, but rather with your second theory.
| Quote: |
| But in general the social changes that hit the west after second wave feminsim haven't really made it to asia yet. |
I've watched Korea climb from well below 50th place to challenging America for the gold medal in divorce rates. It's become the nation's most commonly broken taboo and most prevalent source of social embarrassment and shame. And that's why I find it interesting that that cohabitation remains the big no-no that it still is here. |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Studies show that premarital cohabitaion is damaging to the marriage. Couples are twice as likely go get divorced.
Who says it does not raise eyebrows? I think 1/2 the people in the country would think it is wrong in the States. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
Studies show that premarital cohabitaion is damaging to the marriage. Couples are twice as likely go get divorced.
Who says it does not raise eyebrows? I think 1/2 the people in the country would think it is wrong in the States. |
I was one of very few of my circle of friends from university who never shacked up, and it wasn't because I thought it might damage a marriage. None of us were even thinking in terms of marriage at that time anyway. Whatever the studies say, we know that people who want to shack up don't let statistics stop them.
It only raises half of all eyebrows in the US? You mean it's like a Blue States/Red States kind of thing?  You're probably right, though, but I'd bet a big percentage of the eyebrow-raisers are "on their way out" in generational terms. |
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Cheyne
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Location: Ilsan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:07 am Post subject: |
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I live with my girlfriend but her parents, siblings and friends don't know about it as they are in Busan and we are in Ilsan (Seoul).
If her parents found out, the fit would hit the shan, not because I am a westerer, but the fact she is living with a man and is not married. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Cheyne wrote: |
I live with my girlfriend but her parents, siblings and friends don't know about it as they are in Busan and we are in Ilsan (Seoul).
If her parents found out, the fit would hit the shan, not because I am a westerer, but the fact she is living with a man and is not married. |
Right, this is precisely what I'm thinking -- it's still a no-no. Cheyne, how about your & her employers, your neighbours & shopowners in your area? Do you tell them you're married in order to save face, like the couples I mentioned in Japan? I suppose with neighbours & village people, it depends on whether you see yourself living there a while. But employers... one typically has those for years. How do you deal with them? That was the biggest worry of the cohabitating mixed couples in Japan. |
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tzechuk
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| I lived with my husband for a couple of years before we got married. People assumed we were married. His friends all raised (well, almost all) an eyebrow when they received a wedding invitation from us. Then again, they knew I wasn't Korean, so I think they just accepted it in the end. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| tzechuk wrote: |
| I lived with my husband for a couple of years before we got married. People assumed we were married. His friends all raised (well, almost all) an eyebrow when they received a wedding invitation from us. Then again, they knew I wasn't Korean, so I think they just accepted it in the end. |
Again, this is what I've seen and am believing to be the norm.
I want to be very careful how I phrase this, because my original OP was yanked and edited, and I don't mean to risk that happening again. A, because I'm not trying to test the censors, and B, because it's no fun typing a post only to have it disappear before anyone reads it.
A friend recently summed up differing views of cohabitation: back home your significant other is "shareware"; in Korea as in much of the world, there is a strict "no try-before-you-buy" rule.
Kangnamdragon seems to be saying the Korean way is all for the good, because cohabitors are twice as likely to get divorced. But the relative absence of cohabitation hasn't done much to slow Korea's soaring divorce rates. Indeed, I've heard divorced Koreans (women, specifically) say if society had only allowed them to live together for a few months prior to the wedding, they would have realised what a big (and expensive!  ) mistake they were making, and would have married someone else.
Last edited by JongnoGuru on Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
Studies show that premarital cohabitaion is damaging to the marriage. Couples are twice as likely go get divorced.
Who says it does not raise eyebrows? I think 1/2 the people in the country would think it is wrong in the States. |
meh..statistics, schmatistics.
Stats don't take into account happiness. My guess would be that the marginal number of people who tilt the balance in favor of non-cohabitation before marriage are miserable as all hell but feel obligated to stay together due to asinine religious beliefs and/or feelings of guilt.
How can testing the waters and experiencing first hand your partner��s daily living habits be detrimental to a marriage?
IMO the most damaging thing to a marriage is the idea that the institution is some sacred, precious gift which will reveal a lifetime of joy and wonder.
Case in point..
Two of my friends back home are divorced and both didn't live with their (ex) wives before marriage. One of my friends had his wedding outdoors in a wildflower farm. I watched as my buddy, a 3 time member of the Canadian National Tae-Kwon-Do Team and the toughest guy i'd ever known, cry like a baby as he recited a speech proclaiming his undying love for his wife and how his only desire is to grow old with her. They then slow danced and cried in each others arms as the sun set on this spectacular mountain covered in exotic flowers as over a hundred friends and family looked on.
Guess what? 2 months later they were separated and 1 year later, on their anniversary, they were legally divorced. After the romance faded and the tears dried up, reality kicked them square in the face. My buddy quickly discovered that his princess wife was a closet alcoholic, obsessive compulsive neat freak.
The bottom line? Stats like the one mentioned mean three fist fulls of f-all. We're not talking about some science experiment with static variables. Its human behavioral science and human interactivity; something that is about as easy to predict as the bowel movements of my landlord��s pet rabbit. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:12 am Post subject: |
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My feeling is any woman I thought I could marry I'd want to first date for a year or two. Pick her up at her place, drop her off after the date. Sure spending the night etc. Then after we got engaged I'd be friendly to shacking up. This way you totally know if you can live with each other.
I lived with a GF for a couple years after about half a year of long distance dating and it was not at all fun in the end. At least it taught me what being married was like: being married means you never get to wear what you want ever again. She was on the marriage track and I was on the "wow, I've just moved out of home" track. I found myself going from my mother's care to her care. Ugg. I eventually had to end it when, looking at her naked, I thought "oh my god if I get married to her, these are the last pair of nipples I'm ever going to see!" At that point in my life I wanted to experience a bigger range of female nipples.
One GF who lived in Toronto while I lived in Seattle, I would basically only get to see her when she headed west on her way home 4 times a year to Hong Kong. Something kind of bit about a GF that you basically lived with 1 out of 12 months a year and never actually got to go on traditional dates with. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
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My former hagwon advised me not to have my girlfriends sleep over at my apartment, and even when I was engaged they seemed to take offense with the fact that my fiancee would stay at my place.
I didn't really see how it was any of their business. I had a hard time deciding whether I wanted to make my boss happy or have some fun in the sack. |
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Zenpickle
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Location: Anyang -- Bisan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
I've watched Korea climb from well below 50th place to challenging America for the gold medal in divorce rates. It's become the nation's most commonly broken taboo and most prevalent source of social embarrassment and shame. And that's why I find it interesting that that cohabitation remains the big no-no that it still is here. |
It's funny to note that my girlfriend hasn't told her mother about me not because I'm a foreigner but because I'm divorced. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How can testing the waters and experiencing first hand your partner��s daily living habits be detrimental to a marriage? |
It shouldn't. But the question is why do people who are living together get married. Unfortunately, in more cases than not, it's because the relationship has died a natural death but the couple doesn't recognize that. All the know is they have feelings like maybe they want out but are afraid to be alone. Living with someone is comfy. Your apartment is typically nicer.
There then comes this brinkmanship state where each side basically dares the other person to get on the marriage track because they think a) marriage will breath new life into the relationship or b) this will make my companion dump me so I don't have to do the dirty work.
Of course, they end up getting married. The honeymoon is all too short. And then it's back to the same unworkable problems and petty issues that were the clarion call that the relationship should have ended months ago. Their next brilliant move is then "Say, let's have kids because that will breath new life into our marriage." Now it gets uglier because a child is produced and used later in a divorce as a bargaining chip. Sometime before the child option or after the child option there's also the "a three way will do this relationship good" option... |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
Studies show that premarital cohabitaion is damaging to the marriage. Couples are twice as likely go get divorced.
Who says it does not raise eyebrows? I think 1/2 the people in the country would think it is wrong in the States. |
Yes. And mixed marriages are doomed to failure.
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