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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| jade wrote: |
| Okay here is what I don't understand. If I mention things I like about Korea suddenly I am living in a dream world, in some rose colored bubble. |
rose-colored: With an unduly cheerful, optimistic, or favorable view of things (from dictionary.com)
| jade wrote: |
| No this place isn't perfect. The U.S. isn't perfect...Australia isn't perfect...England isn't perfect...France isn't perfect. |
Right. So does that mean a person should just throw up their hands and say "Oh well?" No place is perfect, eh? So I guess we shouldn't complain? Take your soma and relax. Oh wait, let's just make the best of it and "endure".
I'm also going to address one more point since it seems that many Korean "defenders" accuse the "bashers" of being so one-sided in their complaints about Korea. Did it ever occur to you (plural) that it is possible to have a set of criteria and then apply it equally across the board?
CM |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Did it ever occur to you (plural) that it is possible to have a set of criteria and then apply it equally across the board?
CM |
Well peoples' criteria is based on different things, perception, expectations, relationships.. people have different criteria and sometimes that criteria is met and sometimes it isn't. Simple as that. I don't doubt that there are many in Korea that live in a rose colored bubble, but bashers please, stop assumung everyone does simply because their criteria is different to yours. Now that's one-sided. |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Not necessarily Butterfly. A set of criteria (preferably backed up with empirical evidence) can be agreed to and then used. That way, the people debating have a stake in it and are also implicity bound by the results.
CM |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Not necessarily Butterfly. A set of criteria (preferably backed up with empirical evidence) can be agreed to and then used. That way, the people debating have a stake in it and are also implicity bound by the results.
CM |
Well, it's difficult with you and I Circus Monkey, because we're on such a different wavelength to each other though I greatly respect many of the things you have to say. But it would depend then what the set of criteria would be and then we're back to that universal morality / cultural relativist argument. I believe you are looking for an almost scientific formula to determine what is acceptable and unnacceptable, whereas I don't believe it is always possible to do that because of the many many variants and maxims, intentions, relationships, perceptions that have occured in every human interaction since creation itself. Millions of individual minds with different hang-ups, loves, agendas, passions, upbringings, all interacting and trying to understand each other and be understood, this to me, is what makes life so exciting. We'll never be able to find a common set of criteria, which is of course, what we discuss at Dave's. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
| jade wrote: |
| Okay here is what I don't understand. If I mention things I like about Korea suddenly I am living in a dream world, in some rose colored bubble. |
rose-colored: With an unduly cheerful, optimistic, or favorable view of things (from dictionary.com)
| jade wrote: |
| No this place isn't perfect. The U.S. isn't perfect...Australia isn't perfect...England isn't perfect...France isn't perfect. |
Right. So does that mean a person should just throw up their hands and say "Oh well?" No place is perfect, eh? So I guess we shouldn't complain? Take your soma and relax. Oh wait, let's just make the best of it and "endure".
CM |
But why do you think that the people who come to Korea and defend it from the "bashers" on the board are throwing up their hands and saying "oh well". And why do you think that they are "just making the best of it" and enduring?
Did it ever occur to you that some people who come to Korea may enjoy it just as much or more than their own country? My job here is certainly a lot less stressful, and a heck of a lot more enjoyable than my $16/hour factory job back in Canada. Not to mention the hours are a lot less and the pay is more. Not to mention the fact that instead of wasting one's money in some bar on their weekends they could put it to better use learning Korean and traveling around the country or traveling to China, Japan or Thailand on their "rare" weeks off.
My point is, it doesn't have to be a case of "enduring". If it is, then those people probably need to find another line of work. For Pete's sake why stay at something you hate? This is why the Korean defenders don't understand the Korean "bashers" The only rationale we can come up with as why they stay is that they can't get a job back home. Sure a few have wives here, but that seems to be a very small minority. |
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narsty dog
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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hey cats = an yong .peace love and all that - really. i love this board .
where else can you debate thinds that matter??
i m sorry Girl was angry with me , but what the hell. Maybe she's got something to say to me - and i have to her . emotionalism isnt the way.
one of the problems for me of living in korea was weakness. i felt at the mercy of the elements. like the guy ( who was it ?? paul ?/) cant remember sorry, who ended up in trouble with the law. cos some ajjossi on the subway didnt like americans, he decided to f000k with him ; blah, blah.....whatever.
BUT this is what troubles me about Korea- i feel there is no outlet like in the US/ UK for "alternate voices "
- yeah the Uk/US is still dominated by conservartive forces ( especially as of present ) , but in Korea its like nobody's against the conservatives-
for example in the US/UK lots of students would be racially PC , ie multiculturalism is 'good'. But in Korea , multiculturalism is a dirty word - read weatherman s ( was it ??) report of the TV programme for this.
In the west being aginst the war would be seen as being 'radical' / left wing whatever, a kind of empathy with the suffering of global humanity - ie why should Iraqi women and children be bombed to bits and murdered to achieve the aims of the Bush govt.??
But in Korea , it s a kind of national unifying bonding , like football hooliganism in the UK- " You hate the US ? Chelsea ? Manchester United? France ?? Me too . Lets kick their heads in .
I hate racists. And i hate nationalists too. They threaten me - they threaten my family - they threaten my existence. |
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girl
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| hey narsty - i ain't mad atchya.....i ain't emotional.....i'm just me trying to prove my point just like you....peace? |
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narsty dog
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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of course ...peace ... |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Myth wrote: |
But why do you think that the people who come to Korea and defend it from the "bashers" on the board are throwing up their hands and saying "oh well". And why do you think that they are "just making the best of it" and enduring?
Did it ever occur to you that some people who come to Korea may enjoy it just as much or more than their own country? My job here is certainly a lot less stressful, and a heck of a lot more enjoyable than my $16/hour factory job back in Canada. Not to mention the hours are a lot less and the pay is more. Not to mention the fact that instead of wasting one's money in some bar on their weekends they could put it to better use learning Korean and traveling around the country or traveling to China, Japan or Thailand on their "rare" weeks off.
My point is, it doesn't have to be a case of "enduring". If it is, then those people probably need to find another line of work. For Pete's sake why stay at something you hate? This is why the Korean defenders don't understand the Korean "bashers" The only rationale we can come up with as why they stay is that they can't get a job back home. Sure a few have wives here, but that seems to be a very small minority. |
Sure, of course some folks really like it here. No problem with that. But what usually happens is that these folks tend to "rebut" any criticism with "If you don't like it, leave". It's not always that simple. You already pointed to a couple examples - family ties or employment prospects. As well, it's likely that the more vocal "bashers" DO intend on leaving but aren't gone yet. Also, some are in it for the money and some do love teaching the kiddies, but are fed up with administration, etc... There are many reasons why a person might stay. It is possible to like some aspects and vehemently dislike other parts of Korea.
Anyhow, I retract my earlier statement about throwing up ones hands. That is an oversimplification on my part.
CM |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| narsty dog wrote: |
| of course ...peace ... |
Peace? I hope so. With everyone or just Girl? Your actual opinions are respected Nasty Dog, it's just the way you insult, belittle, and provoke other posters in such hurtful ways; nothing to do with your opinions or Korea. In fact much of what you write I heartily agree with especially those on the brutal assault on Iraq. I just wish you wouldn't be so personal about people whom you do not know, and show a bit more respect for those who harbor a different opinion to your own. There are no truths after all.
A recent nasty dog montage.
| narsty dog wrote: |
If i threaten your little korean bubble
half baked graduate of some sort or drifter
it s better than being mistaken for an american
smuggy smug smug group
dream on nabi
that's what korea can do you - frazzle your brain.
This is the nasty seed under the surface that makes me distrust you and your ilk
it makes it so much better coming from a girl
personal attack deleted - Lemon, 9:22am
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It's like you draw people in by making very bold statements, and people think, "Hang on, I think I disagree with that." and when they challenge you they get insulted and belittled by you and if you are confident in what you are saying I don't understand why you feel the need to do it. I mean, particularly recently when on several occasions you have dismissed the life career choice of almost everyone who posts here by referrring to us all as 'half baked graduates and drifters' ; how unpleasant.
Please Nasty Dog, stop making such deeply personal and unpleasant remarks about posters personalities, intelligence levels and career choices. If you are doing much better than us all, my sincere congratulations to you, but we're not actually interested in that, just your thoughts and experiences about Korea and Korean life. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Circus There are many reasons why a person might stay. It is possible to like some aspects and vehemently dislike other parts of Korea.
CM[/quote]
I totally agree. I however hardly ever hear the Korean bashers mention anything good about Korea. I just get angry when I can't even visit a forum which says "let's be positive about Korea" without a mob of bashers tearing it down and then resorting to personal attacks when one questions their motives. It just gets wearisome all the time and sometimes demands an irate response, although I try to ignore trolls |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Right. So does that mean a person should just throw up their hands and say "Oh well?" No place is perfect, eh? So I guess we shouldn't complain? Take your soma and relax. Oh wait, let's just make the best of it and "endure". |
Ummm...well...sometimes yeah just that. I can't change Korean society singlehandedly despite all my super powers. What I can do is recognize the bad and do one of two things....
1. Become bitter, hate all things Korean, whine about it incessently, pretend for some reason I am superior and go through life ticking off the cultures that I deem unacceptable or.....
2. Recognize the bad aspects in the society. Try hard not to support them or be a part of them. Stay true to my own moral and societal mores as non-offensively as possible. Find the good things about where I live and enjoy them.....
I don't endure...I live. I like my life here. I enjoyed my life in America. I liked living in Europe....I found things in all these places that were abominble and some that delighted and enlightened me. I will discount a society because I don't agree with everything they do.
Yes, I grouse now and again. Hell, I groused when I was in the states and Europe.
All in all take the good, recognize the bad and try to live a good life.
jade |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CM wrote: |
| Anyhow, I retract my earlier statement about throwing up ones hands. That is an oversimplification on my part. |
Hey Jade, didn't you see my earlier retraction???
CM |
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Homer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:52 am Post subject: |
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Good point(s) Butterfly.
N-Dog does indeed make valid points but they are usually wrapped in a very nasty and often demeaning way. That makes some people (including me) respond.
As for the "success" of someone its all relative to what a person considers "success" to be. For some its how much coin they are making. For others its job satisfaction. The list goes on.
Its a case of personal preferences I think. A statement along the lines of "teachers here (korea) area bunch of losers and failures" does not reflect the real situation. Also, in my mind, just because someone is making heaps of money it does not automatically make him or her a success or more sucessful than another person.
CM, also a good post (the "retraction" one). One can indeed both lve and hate Korea. In fact, this is true of any country you live in. I am home in Canada on vacation now (until may 15th) and I do love to be home on certain levels but on others there are somethings that really annoy me here. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
As for the "success" of someone its all relative to what a person considers "success" to be. For some its how much coin they are making. For others its job satisfaction. The list goes on.
Its a case of personal preferences I think. A statement along the lines of "teachers here (korea) area bunch of losers and failures" does not reflect the real situation. Also, in my mind, just because someone is making heaps of money it does not automatically make him or her a success or more sucessful than another person.
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Bang on. Indeed at no point has anyone mentioned happiness as a criteria for success. Teaching English as a Foreign Language makes me happy, I enjoy it, meet lots of interesting international people, get some beautiful chicks, have pretty short working days, and still make enough money for me to make my future secure. My life is fantastic, I'm so happy. That's why it is very hurtful when someone who doesn't know me calls me a drifter! I chose to be right here right now, and I love it. |
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