Korean Job Discussion Forums

[thegadfly]

Hi folks -- I spent some time looking through the forums for an answer to this question, but I didn't see anything on the first dozen pages or so, and a search didn't result in anything especially topical, so I figured I would just ask and get flamed for starting a new thread.....

If you were to work at a school that wanted teachers to teach a lot of classes, what would you reasonably expect in return? I mean, sure, I would love to have pedicures and backrubs whilst scantily clad ladies fed me peeled grapes between classes, but that ain't a-gonna happen...I have a fairly work-driven friend that is interested in opening a hakwon, but she wants to know what she ought to offer to get the kind of hard work, dedication, and enthusiasm she wants for her school...or, if she finds that she hasn't got the means needed to attract the "right kinds" of teachers, she wants to know before losing too much more time.

Any constructive response is appreciated, and good-natured humor is always given props. Thanks in advance....

[zappadelta]

[chronicpride]

It's what isn't in the contract that passes the test of time.

-Honesty.
-An english-fluent director.
-A director who is responsive, helpful, and appreciative that 99% of teachers don't know anything about living/surviving in Korea, particularly in their first 3-4 months. And that the relationship may need to be geared more closer to the care and consideration found in a homestay environment, as opposed to just being a straightforward employer-employee arrangement.
-A director who is appreciative and understanding that the person that they are employing is coming from a totally different world and working environment, full of their own individual perspectives and influences, and cannot be lumped into 'all Canadians/Americans/Australians/etc, can be relatively lumped into this and that' stereotypes and patterns of predictability, due to lack of exposure to them and their culture.
-A director who can expect the similar stereotyping and assumptive habits coming from the teacher, as well, and remain mindful of this, due to their lack of exposure to the director, and the culture, in general.
-Foreign teachers are sticklers for requiring foresight, organizing, and planning. Try to minimize the surprises. And remember that being asked to work late or do extracurricular work can be deemed as a surprise, at even the most opportune times.
-The apartment has to be clean and well-maintained. And if you want an even more harmonious relationship with your teacher, then try to shell out the extra deposit, for a larger pyeong apartment.

The salary and schedule gripes always seem to fade out after the first few months, despite everyone making a big deal about it, pre-hire. More often than not, the above issues have always seemed to be a thorn at any given time of the contract, and are more frequently the root causes of a broken employment relationship.

[thegadfly]

Thanks Chronic and Zappa, for taking the time to reply....

I think I need to clarify a bit.

Assuming a professional work environment, an owner that speaks and understands English quite well (and is, herself, a respected English instructor), and a strenuous work schedule, what type of compensation will most likely attract the "shoulder to the wheel" types?

Or another way...what is the most classes a teacher might be expected to teach, and what would one consider a fair to generous compensation, to make up for the tiring schedule...for example, a lot of folks do illegal private lessons for 30,000-50,000 won an hour (depending on location, etc etc etc) -- so would overtime pay of 30,000-ish an hour be sufficient to salve the sores of working legally?

What salary might one find fair for teaching 30-35 class hours a week? (By class hour, I mean a 45, 50, or 55 minute class, each and any of which would count as 1 hour...small classes of 5-10 students).

Would you, could you, teach 40 class hours a week...remember, I did mention a strenuous schedule....

The older I get, the more I value my free time, but when I had student loans to pay, a gazillion hours at high overtime rate was right up my alley....what would attract the younger versions of me ?

[zappadelta]

I guess I can't answer this because I wouldn't work more than 25 hours a week. Her best bet probably is to hire newbies that don't have a clue or have never seen this board before. I don't think that most people here are up for working a lot.

[guangho]

30 hours at 50 minutes per hour is probably my personal upper limit. Remember, a hakwon is at the mercy of the fee paying parent who can always take little Joe or Joan elsewhere. This means that they need to be kept satisfied and education is not on their radar screen. Little Joe/Joan needs to have fun, needs to be entertained, needs to have his/her runny nose wiped, all with a friendly smile. S/he does not want to work too much (especially if it's a kid grade 3 or less- by grade 4 they have settled down a bit and can do some work), s/he has the attention span of a gnat and s/he has no trouble saying "kevin teacher boring; kevin teacher no like me; kevin teacher is a blood-drinking satan worshipper who sacrifices imported pygmys while reading new testament passages (that last one is par for the course in American schools)" You get my point. It's hard and uncertain work for you (as an administrator) you (as a salesman) you (as a flashpoint for every korean mom temper tantrum or KMTT) and for the teachers you will inevitably take your frustrations out on. And, unless you're a 3, 4 year hakwon vet who can do this in his sleep, it's hard work for the teachers too.
How much would you want to make as a newbie, fresh off the boat and five figures in debt?
How much would you want to give as a new school director who just sunk a boatload of money into a risky and some say unnecessary venture? (This is not to be rude- it's just that hakwon's are a dime a dozen here- what makes yours special?)

The others had some good points to consider as well.

[peppermint]

Teaching 40 hours a week is flat out too much if there's planning involved, though there are people who will do it for 3 mil. A guarantee of no splits, making the school a genuinely pleasant place to be and offering some sort of re- signing bonus will help keep good teachers though.

[Grotto]

A decent schedule is one of the most important things to me.

I dont mind teaching from 2-9 or 10 if there is an hour long dinner break in there.

Having an hour to rest, eat and refresh can be very important.

A good salary of 2.3 or higher with a bonus system would help motivate teachers.

The thing is a bonus doesnt have to be a huge amount of money. A payment of 50,000 won over and above the salary goes a long way to improving a teachers attitude and making them feel wanted and important.

[Bunnymonster]

Make the teachers feel appreciated, realise that pinching on minutes and 'face time' when people are working a lot already will breed resentment. As one who has gotten the shaft this year (never taught less than 41*40 minute classes a week) when my supervisor turns round and goes "I don't care if you are prepared for your classes, I want you here 30 mnutes earlier" I get really angry and resentful. This resentment leads me think why the *beep* should I put in the extra work on my own time. The feeling of being treated like a child causes me untold angst.

To be honset though I'd suggest to your friend looking to hire more folk and pay them less, I'd happily take a short hour job with a lower rate of pay (and would probably put in extra work on my own time) and would definitely teach in a better fashion than I am now where I have to try and pacemyself throught the day in an effort to stay afloat.

[thegadfly]

Again, thank all of you for taking the time to reply -- you have been friendly and constructive, and it is appreciated....

I agree that a lower-hour gig with a decent salary and the option of working "overtime"classes for near-private rates is ideal, and is what I suggested initially...the problem with THAT is key money on apartments...sure, two teachers each with only 15 classes a week would give them plenty of time to prepare and be refreshed, and if the overtime through the school were close to local "current market" private rates, I imagine no one in such a situation would "stray"... but, key money X2 plus salary X2 (for two teachers) is quite a bit more than key money X1 plus salary X2.5 or so (for the one teacher...yes, she intends to pay her workaholic solo teacher more than she would need to pay two seperate teachers -- she figures the extra work definitely deserves extra pay, and her savings on key money outweitghs the additional salary).

Oh, and for the record, Bunnymonster...man, you are getting raked over the coals! 41 class-hours a week is insane -- I've been in similar places and done similar things, but it is no-good-very-bad, and you have my sympathy....

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

The chance for lucrative 'second' location work - or a very good overtime rate above 30 or 35 hours.

I know of one school in Ilsan that got its teachers 50,000 an hour privates that were done on site, for teachers that did a good job at the school.

That got the school very loyal and happy teachers.

[chronicpride]

[eamo]

Korean hagwon contracts are not really written in stone. Especially in smaller chains and Mom and Pop operations.

My criteria would much of what has been said above. No more than around 27 hours teaching time per week.

Another vital thing is the classrooms themselves. That's where you're going to spend most of your working time afterall. They should be spacious and airy or you'll feel like a hamster in a cage each day. I've turned down otherwise good jobs because the classrooms were less than 4m by 4m with no windows.

A difficult class in a really small space can be very claustrophobic.

[Flossie]

[Grotto]

hmmmm

While I can understand your resentment, I am afraid I have to stick up for the hagwons on that one. I worked at a school for two years with fixed daily schedule hours and many of my coworkers would turn up exactly on time to clock in.

This is exactly what happens when hogwans only pay for in class time. Why should I prep on my own time? I'm not getting paid for it! Hogwans should structure their contracts differently. A salary of X amount will be paid for working 1:30-8:00Pm the first half hour is to be used for prep. If a teacher is asked to work more than 30 classes a week they will be paid overtime. Sounds simple but hogwans dont do that they want their 120 hours a month.

or were consistently five to twenty minutes late. This is so frustrating and unprofessional and I have to admit I resented it too as I was often left babysitting their students while said teacher was still making it to class.

My question is why did you do this? Were you paid overtime for it? Didnt the director put their foot down? Kudos to you for putting up with it but why?

By the way, for a decent school environment and working conditions I worked 45 hours per week plus preparation time for two years, quite happily. I guess it depends on your priorities

You must have been making money hand over fist to work those kind of hours....what 3 mil + or been one hell of a masochist!
Oh and sorry but 45 hours + prep time doesnt strike me as decent working conditions unless the monetary compensation was there to offset the time commitment.