Korean Job Discussion Forums

Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

There are some gaping holes in that post.

The assumption that gyopos can not be native speakers [the term kyopo describes ethnicity and cultural heritage, not language; there are gyopos who are native speakers], and the assumption that all native speakers have an absolutely flawless grasp of the language.
You also threw in the corollary 'good native teacher'; well, do we now need to argue "Good Gyopo English teachers" vs. "Sh*tty white English teachers"?

Edit: fixed a typo, did NOT change the pertinent points of the post in any way.

jurassic5 · Joined: 02 Apr 2003 Location: PA

girl · Joined: 30 Jan 2003

Kleenex · Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Location: Korea

Ooh, that was a gaping hole. Didn't know that gyopos could be native speakers. Born and raised in America? I call those people Americans. Born and raised in Koreatown? I call them Koreans. Native-speaking gyopos exist? So be it.

I had a Vietnamese friend who was raised in a Vietnamese neighborhood in the States and her English is not native. No way, not just because she lived in the States. That's where 'cultural heritage' might come into play negatively, unless I've misunderstood again. And there's no assumption native speakers are perfect. They can be perfect conversationalists, though, which doesn't require perfect grammar. Perfect grammar is for the high schools to teach, and that's why hagwons exist, so that Koreans can learn conversational English, or practical English.

Bulsajo asked:

rumibaer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Location: U.S.

*wow*
Kleenex~ I got myself in quite a bit of a huff when I first read your post, but then I calmed down when I realized that what you wrote was born more out of ignorance, then a vindictive nature. I was ready to whiplash you with my best diatribe, but I decided to spare you.

First off~ there are some confusions that need to be cleared up. The actual definition of gyopo, is an overseas Korean. So for example, my parents are gyopo's, since they were born and raised in Korea, but now live and work in the U.S. "Jae-mi gyopo" is probably a better term for people like myself, "girl" and "jurassic", as we were raised in America. However, that said- I'd like to say that regardless of whether one is an
"yi-sei" ( or second generation korean, or Korean-American etc.) or a "gyopo", they can have the ability to speak English with the so-called "innate" ability that you claim are only inherent in those who are true "native-speakers". This really got to me- because right now I am taking a class in Asian-American history, and we have spent a whole semester reading about how the Asians who first immigrated to America were forced to be "strangers" in America, merely by the fact that their faces bore the "asian mask" that revealed their ethinicity, whereas every Polish, Italian, Dutch, etc. was able to blend in, and make themselves into whoever they wanted to be. When you first see a white person in America, you don't think " Gee, can that person speak English?" but with Asian-Americans, who ethnically have features deviating from the anglo "norm", and signal "foreign", immediately people may think that person is a new immigrant, or speaks 2nd rate English.

I may not be the norm, but I'm certainly not alone either, in saying that I am a Korean-American, but my "native" language is English. In fact, I am a "native speaker". I'd be willing to put my accent, enunciation, delivery,vocabulary, and pacing against your own or any other "native speaker" in this forum, and I'm pretty sure that I could put some people to shame. The moral of the story is, don't judge a book by it's cover. Just because you have seen some gyopo's who have a trace of an accent, or have grown up in a very "asian" manner, this is not to say that all gyopo's through sheer location of birth or watnot can never have the "right" accent. For my final example my friend I'd like to present the case of person "X" at my school. "X" was born in Italy, grew up in France, Korea, Germany, and Florida, and speaks flawless English. English is either her 2nd or 3rd language, and yet through her natural penchant for languages, has every inflection and nuance down- she speaks English better than 75% of all the white kids I'm in business school with, whose first ( and most often ONLY) language is English.

Perhaps you didn't know that what you were writing was going to be so offensive to some people- but it really irritates me when people generalize and stereotype in the manner that you did. But neway, it's all good ^^

Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Yaya · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Location: Seoul

The IDEA is that Koreans who were raised in America are Americans. Too bad much of America doesn't think that way. Not saying Americans are all racist, bla bla bla, but a Korean will still get asked where he or she is from if the answer isn't somewhere in Asia.

Incidentally, I was called a "chink" the first day I got back to the US after nine years in Korea. And believe it or not, it happened in Asian-rich LA.

Yet another classic case of a white who thinks he or she knows what life is like for Asian-Americans.

rumibaer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Location: U.S.

Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

l'il kim · Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Location: T-dot

Another reason kyopos have a harder time getting hired? The lovely F4 visa. That stamp in our passports essentially confers the rights of dual citizenship, and we are completely free to work wherever we want. So we can't be any school's b*tch/indentured slave. Some school directors do not like their teachers having that degree of freedom...

Kleenex · Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Location: Korea

Thanks for all the info about gyopos! Thanks rumi for not opening the can of whoopass. Being American, do the demonstrators tell you to go home, too?

Guess what everyone, I'm half Asian, too! Can I join your club now? I've known enough Asians born and raised in the US that should not should not be allowed to teach English in Korea. I, like a lot of others on this board, do qualify. I don't look like a white guy so much either. Everyone's a victim. If you are a native speaker, then go out and get yourself a job. I know a Korean-American who ended up teaching in a University and writing the text for their program (Hanyang Seoul). Can't find a job? Look harder. There are thousands of hagwons out there and many of them are desperate for teachers.

Bulsajo, I don't use smilies. That Quebec comment was a joke. Calm down.

Bulsajo · Joined: 16 Jan 2003

rumibaer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Location: U.S.

hmm.. kleenex you being half-asian, does that mean that you were merely playing Devil's Advocate with those initial comments... or did you really mean them? that makes me even more sad if you did mean them, since you are half yellow afterall ^^

weatherman · Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Location: Korea

Kleenex · Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Location: Korea

Rumi and others: No, not devil's advocate. Not on purpose. I guess I did stir some sh`t up, didn't I? I'm half Asian, but I was raised as an American, not just in America.

One problem, as we've already gotten out in the open, was that I thought a gyopo was a Korean person living abroad. I had an entirely different image of that from what you said the use of the word is; to paraphrase, you (or someone) said it could be someone of Korean descent born and raised in America. Based on what I thought, would you agree I wasn't trying to "get anyone's goat"? I know plenty of Koreans who have lived in the States and therefore think they can teach like a native. That's what I meant about the nuances that a non-native speaker can never grasp. Even 20 years wouldn't make you a native speaker. It's been 35 years for my mom and you should hear the stuff she says.

I have a colleague who's been here for decades. He speaks fluent Korean and has mostly assimilated to (or gotten used to) Korean culture. Koreans call him Korean. Is he though? When I thought of gyopos, with the help of my mini-dictionary, I thought it was a Korean who'd been in the reverse situation.

I also thought of Malaysians who actually grow up speaking English as their major language. Many Indians learn it so they can communicate with each other. As JW said in the other race topic, he knows of loads of countries where English is native. But it's an entirely different breed of English, don't you think? I applied that to my argument, but didn't include it.

Back to one of my later statements, if you're a native speaker and you want a job, go out there and get one. If you can't get in as the "native speaker" but you really want to teach, take the position open for a Korean and show them what you've got. Work your way up. Establish respect. Cream rises to the top. I did it 3 different times. Most recently I was a part-time English teacher at 6 hours a week and I worked my way up to assistant director. (Oh, I'm so full of myself.)

Anyway, I don't want this thread to focus completely on my misunderstanding of the word instead of what the original poster (Jurassic5) intended. I will accept personal arguments via pm.