Korean Job Discussion Forums

[TECO]

I guess I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't interested in getting as much paid vacation as possible.

But I noticed that this is how Yonsei University is advertising it's current openings.

Not, "We have a great facility with tons of resources" or something along those lines but "hey, this is how much vacation we offer!"

[Grotto]

12 weeks could be sweet.

If you cound arrange it for 6 weeks halfway through and leave a month and a half early!

if you could take it all in a block I would just save it all for the end of the contract leave 2 months early and smile smile smile

[the_beaver]

[TECO]

Hey, Beaver:

I worked my first 2 years in Taiwan with 0 days paid holiday. I took time off but wasn't paid for it. No paid vacation in Taiwan if your school doesn't want you to get it.

In Japan, I got 10 days paid vacation - that's maybe more in-line with "Chicken Feed."

A matter of perspective I guess - but coming from the trenches of conversation schools 3 months is sweet.

Big Shot university teachers like you get spoiled I guess !

[the_beaver]

[People's Front of Judea]

Well, I have gone through the university job search since late November. Over the past 2 and a half months, I applied to 23 university positions that seemed to offer a fair deal. I sent what I consider to be a very professional application packet that includes everything they could ask for, except for a picture of me in a cat suit, but one never knows! I initially heard back from 4, but declined the interviews because they only offered two months vacation.

Now, some people would love to have two months paid vacation, so I understand where TECO coming from. Yet, a Korean friend who teaches at a university here in Seoul was surprised when she heard that foreign professors (guest lecturers, or whatever the label is for non-tenured track foreigner) might not receive the full 4 and a half months. She seems to think it was not up the university policy, rather Korean law. I would be interested to know if what she said was accurate. The point here is she was surprised I wasn't offered the full vacation. Most of the universities I heard back from only offered 2 months or 3 months with no overtime for the time spent at university when others are on vacation. I got a bit sour about this.

Enter Yonsei. I applied for an interview with them. Yet, I was brewing over this vacation situation. After reviewing what they actually offered (which can be found on their website), I ended up declining the interview at Yonsei with the advertised "12 WEEKS VACATION." I declined for various reasons. The funny part is that a friend of mine went for the interview the very day they got the email. He accepted the job there and learned about my email declining the position from staff and a couple of buddies he knew that worked there. From what he told me, my email caused pandemonium. Cool! Anyway, he told me that the foreign teachers strongly defended the shortcomings I pointed out about teaching at their university. To each his own.

Call me silly, but I wanted a university position that offers the full vacation with no BS about hanging around the office doing nothing for weeks, or working last minute summer or winter camps.

Well, my spite paid off. One week after I declined the Yonsei position, I got offered an excellent job at a small Christian college in North Seoul that will give me the full vacation (4 and a half months). Honestly, I am not saying this to gloat. I mention it because it happen to pay off waiting for a better gig, instead of accepting what others might think is great.

This is the email I sent the director at Yonsei. See if you think it sounds malicious or if I sound crazy for declining this position:




After carefully reading the contract and housing policy at Yonsei, I must unfortunately decline your offer for an interview.

The curriculum for your courses and location of the university are very attractive. Yet, other factors might be better for a first year teacher in Korea. Specifically, I would have issues with the housing policy:

*Security deposit 300,000 won (Deposits are donations. They are rarely refunded
even if the occupant as been clean and compliant with all housing regulations)
*Shared Accommodation (Do you share your house with strangers?)
*Occupant responsible for damage to water pipes? Meter Reading? (If I pay
someone a maintenance fee, I expect them to fulfill such menial tasks as reading
the meter, as my mind will be focused daily on preparing activities, grading, and
teaching my students)
*Occupants could be asked to change apartments during the semester (If I had a
single apartment, would I later be asked to move into a shared apartment with a
stranger who might have alcohol problems, depression, overzealous nationalistic
views, or worse yet, filthy living habits?)

I would also have issues with the contract:

*1.9 million won for 24 or more hours of teaching (The university norm is 2 million won
for 16 to 18 hours a week)
If I were to teach 24 hours at university, then I would be teaching 5 hours a day.
This will be compounded with preparation time, office hours, and possible extra
classes. So I could be working 7 to 8 hours a day for only 1.9 million (1.77 after
taxes). I'm not afraid to work and put in longer hours, and I have done so over the
past two years. Yet I do expect to do fairly compensated for my efforts, as I am
sacrificing activities outside the classroom (continuing graduate level study,
learning Korean, sports, etc) for commitments to the school.
*Taxes are withheld (American university instructors in Korea do not have tax
withheld)
*If there are no volunteers for extra classes, a teacher has to accept extra classes
(Shouldn't this be voluntary?)
*If a teacher doesn't have the full load of classes, they have to stay at work for
possibly filling in for a "sick" teacher (Some teachers like myself will work while
having the flu, while others will take sick days for a head cold)
*The university will pay for visa travel expenses for the first year (I would expect this
regardless)
*3 months vacation is mentioned, but nothing is mentioned about instructor duties
during the other month of vacation, nor any extra pay during regular vacation periods

Usually, I am open to negotiate and compromise on points in a contract, but there are just too many points too negotiate. In the worst case scenario, a teacher could be moved from his or her apartment, be held responsible for damages, released if a problem occurs with a roommate, and appointed extra classes for the whole semester not outlined in the contract. This is why I say the position is better suited for a younger, first-year teacher. I have successfully completed 4 (one-year) contracts for 3 schools, and this is because of stability in the housing situation as well as a well-supported work environment where one can excel and benefit the school without being penalized for the unsavory actions of less-committed teachers.

Again, I appreciate your offer for an interview, but I must decline as facets mentioned above would not be compatible with my expectations. I wish you and Yonsei the best in your selection of applicants and future endeavors.


Best Wishes,


As I reread this, I do find some of my comments to be a bit snooty, but that was the mood I was in at the time. I guess my "kibun" was in a bad place that day.

Anyay, if I would have accepted Yonsei's offer for an interview and gained a position there, those are the possible negatives I would have faced. But I didn't. What do you guys think? I am nuts for declining this postion with the "12 WEEKS VACATION?" I am glad I did, but it could have worked out badly if I didn't have another position coming to the rescue with exactly everything I was looking for.

I guess my main question is: Should we accept positions that don't offer fair compensation even if that which is offered seems better than working at an average hagwan? I know this is far from being an example of "Hogwan Hell," but if you should be offered 4 months vacation and settle for 2 or 3 only because the person at the interview tells you so, this doesn't settle with me well. Maybe I have lost my mind.

This is just an observation, but it seems to me that being contacted by a department chair and interviewing with the dean present usually corresponds with a position offered that seems more than fair. Yet, being contacted by a director (or some equivalently titled person) and interviewing with a director usually corresponds to a position offering only 2 months vacation or less, with further points to negotiate about working hours, salary, and housing. It sure seemed easier applying for good uni jobs back in 2001-2002 than it was this time around.

[TECO]

Interesting,

Was their a foreign rep that you dealt with at Yonsei during the interview process?

A couple of years ago I dealt with a snooty woman who was screening resumes for positions at this school.

I too took issue with the shared housing.

[the_beaver]

Yonsei has (I think it still has) several different English programs. One of them is the hagwon program and I think they get shafted in comparison to Yonsei's other programs. I know the mainstream program treats (or at least used to treat -- been out of touch with my Yonsei contacts for a while) their teachers well and they get all the holidays and perks that the better universities offer.

[hellofaniceguy]

*Taxes are withheld (American university instructors in Korea do not have tax withheld) end quote...

Wrong answer.
I know of a half dozen American teachers who work at universities...NOT hakwon or FLI hakwons at universities..but actual universites on an E1 visa such as myself. And we pay taxes. And I can't figure this one out...two Canadian teachers here, also E1 visas...have no taxes withheld. Go figure.

[People's Front of Judea]

TECO, the point of contact was Dr. Park (Program Director - Yonsei). I didn't go to the interview. I don't think they currently have a foreign rep.

Beaver, I believe this position was for the English program at the uni, and not the Language Center (hagwan). I have seen their hagwon package advertised on Dave's a month or two ago. It's not the same.

You heard the mainstream program treats their teachers well and they get all the holidays and perks that the better universities offer. I heard the same thing from a friend of a friend who used to work there, so I wasn't expecting it find so many points that I feel are unsavory. Maybe they don't use the tools of leverage at their disposal (via the contract points mentioned above) to give teachers a hard time, but the potential to do so is there. I haven't seen the "better" universities and colleges making such requests about housing deposits, liable for damages, roommates, possible mandatory unscheduled extra classes that could last all semester, etc. My friend who accepted the job there seems to think everything is kosher. They have a decent rep, so I am confused about certain points in the contract that seem somewhat like those used in bad hagwons (held liable for damages, take any class we give you, etc.). Weird. Anyway, I appreciate your insight.

[The Chewbacca Defense]

I know a guy that has worked at Yonsei Wonju Campus for a couple of years....so they must be doing something right.

I was offered a job there a few years ago, but I turned it down for the sole reason an ex-girlfriend was working there.

Given the chance I would work there again, but I have another Uni job.

[ajuma]

You've got to really look into "vacation time". Talk to someone who works there. The vacation time may be a whole lot more (or maybe less) than is offered, but they "offer" what's in the contract (which may or may not be the amount ACTUALLY given!).

[People's Front of Judea]

Good advice Ajuma. Usually after a job interview, I get to have a coffee with the department chair, director, or professor. That's when I ask them about the vacation specifics, or after a contract is offered.

I guess I "jumped the gun" concerning Yonsei in Wonju. Teachers seem to have good things to say about it even though dodgy points exist in the contract. I guess I should have given them the benefit of the doubt. Well, thanks for the info. everyone. I'll tread more lightly in the future.

[ajuma]

What my school offers (sounds really low) and the actual vacation time given (right up there with the "big" guys) are two totally different kettles of fish!

[the_beaver]