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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:07 am Post subject: The Discerning Nose Debate |
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This is just hot off the JoongAng Ilbo presses (actually from last Friday):
[FOUNTAIN]A melting pot or mosaic?
Many Koreans think America and Canada are similar countries. My Canadian friend pointed out that the conception is wrong, and the two countries are quite different. According to him, while the United States can be described as a �melting pot,� Canada is a mosaic.
Both countries are made up of immigrants, but while America has tried to �melt� each member into society and create �one America,� Canada has recognized and accepted the differences and diversity of its immigrants. My friend guaranteed that Koreans can freely enjoy kimchi in Canada, whereas the smell could offend some Americans.
I hope he got this guarantee in writing. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:56 am Post subject: |
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melting pot vs. mosaic.. oh brother.. all terminology..
Someone seriously needs to actually go to New York City, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc. Tell me if you see signs, restaurants, entire neighborhoods and all the rest of extremely different cultures co-existing there..
They don't 'blend' in.. first generation is always a 'mosaic'.. its later in past generations it becomes 'melting pot' I guess.. or whatever you call it.. anyhow, its all terminology and not much of a true reflection of reality.. |
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Zed
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, it's an extremely tiring topic my fellow Canadians seem to want to engage themselves in constantly, patting themselves on the back all the way. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:32 am Post subject: |
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I really don't want to get into this debate as it is old and tired. I just have a question. Are there places in America that have foreign languages on street signs in areas that have a large, for example, Spanish speaking minority or majority? How about bank machine instructions etc.?
Is that sort of thing frowned upon in the States? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| matko wrote: |
I really don't want to get into this debate as it is old and tired. I just have a question. Are there places in America that have foreign languages on street signs in areas that have a large, for example, Spanish speaking minority or majority? How about bank machine instructions etc.?
Is that sort of thing frowned upon in the States? |
Yes there are.. everywhere.. its all over the States. I lived in New York City for a couple years and the subways have things in about six languages. Half of the billboards are in Spanish. The subways are half and half almost exactly between Spanish and English. Also, every public announcement notice is written in Korean, Russian, Chinese, Arabic, and who knows what else..
In San Francisco, when I worked in the Elections Dept, you can do all of your voting in anyone of about 6-8 languages.. even in Tagalog.. Russian or whatever.. they hire a section of people just do answer the phones for Chinese voters or whoever wants to talk in whatever language they decide. Even the ballots are created in several languages - definetely always Chinese and Spanish.. always. Go to the Dept of Motor Vehicles for your drivers license, and there are pamphlets and forms to fill out all available in who knows how many languages.. probably about 12-14 I'm guessing, etc.
In Miami, Spanish is the primarily language. Everything is Spanish, the newspapers, radio stations, billboard signs, everything. (I guess it would be similar to French in Quebec, but no one really talks about it.. its too normal to talk about I'm guessing.. no clue).. that being said there is English around as well though.. but its not the norm.
In addition, when I lived in NYC, there were a couple TV stations entirely in Korean, many in Spanish, one in French-Creole for the Hatians, others in Japanese, Chinese, whatever else.. all kinds.. Arabic, etc.
All the banks throughout the US (I believe), when withdrawing money, always always has Spanish and Chinese.. sometimes other languages depending on the demographics of the city.
Anyhow, just about everywhere you go there are foreign languages of all kinds of different sorts everywhere.. up in Michigan, near Detroit, I grew up in Michigan.. if you go to Detroit you'll see alot of Arabic..
Primarily its Spanish though.. with a lesser extent Chinese. If you go to Los Angeles there is a huge area where you can drive a few miles in any direction and see nothing but all Korean signs.. except for the scattered Spanish, Vietnamese or whatever else spotted through it..
Half of the voice recordings in the country start in Spanish and then switch to English.. which has been one young comedians jokes for the last couple years.. as to why do they ask the Spanish-speakers first and the English-speakers have to wait and push extra buttons.. anyhow..
Its all over the place.. you just gotta visit and see for yourself though.. don't read the Canadian newspapers to find this out.. as they seem to purposely paint a real strange weird off-the-wall agenda-oriented picture of the USA for reasons unknown..
Last edited by Tiger Beer on Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| don't read the Canadian newspapers to find this out..as they seem to purposely paint a real strange weird off-the wall agenda-oriented picture of the USA for reasons unknown.. |
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
Like I said, I'm not looking to get into a debate over which country is more 'multicultral'
However, I have noticed that you have a 'thing' against Canada. You must have had some bad experiences with Canadians.
What is it about Canada and Canadians that you dislike so much?
Please don't answer that you like Canada (as you have in other posts) because your posting record is decidedly anti Canadian. That's fine with me, just don't 'mask' your true feelings in an attempt to not offend!
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Its just the way your worded your words..
| matko wrote: |
I just have a question. Are there places in America that have foreign languages on street signs in areas that have a large, for example, Spanish speaking minority or majority? How about bank machine instructions etc.?
Is that sort of thing frowned upon in the States? |
I just feel there are alot of really strange misconceptions.. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
Its just the way your worded your words..
| matko wrote: |
I just have a question. Are there places in America that have foreign languages on street signs in areas that have a large, for example, Spanish speaking minority or majority? How about bank machine instructions etc.?
Is that sort of thing frowned upon in the States? |
I just feel there are alot of really strange misconceptions.. |
I asked that question because I didn't know!!
It wasn't rhetorical!!
Anyway, if you check MY posting record you will see that I am decidedly pro American.
No hard feelings Yankee boy!!  |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| I realize your post was just being inquisitive.. maybe I overly responded.. and its not one of those things I guess you'd just know unless you'd been in the US. So its quite a fair question. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| I realize your post was just being inquisitive.. maybe I overly responded.. and its not one of those things I guess you'd just know unless you'd been in the US. So its quite a fair question. |
I've been to the US many times. Mostly Washington State and Oregon and have never noticed any multi-lingual street signs (not billboards, actuall government approved signs). Maybe I am so used to seeing them, I never noticed. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| matko wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| I realize your post was just being inquisitive.. maybe I overly responded.. and its not one of those things I guess you'd just know unless you'd been in the US. So its quite a fair question. |
I've been to the US many times. Mostly Washington State and Oregon and have never noticed any multi-lingual street signs (not billboards, actuall government approved signs). Maybe I am so used to seeing them, I never noticed. |
Oregon I believe is the undeniable 'whitest' state in the USA. Something like 89% white or something like that. Just very recently they've begun to have some Asian immigration there. But due to a situation where some (I believe Chinese) woman with valid visa flew in there.. and had some situation.. I believe she was detained even though she had a valid visa, and I believe deported. My friend who lives there with his Korean wife said they now term the city "Deport-Land" among the immigrant population. Plus as liberal as it is, its just not equipped, and therefore undesireable for immigrants to go. That being said, my friend's wife is Korean and there are alot of Korean things to do in Beaverton.. but overwhelmingly its very white American of the liberal sort - despite the 'deport-land' label it recently got..
Seattle has a few more asians.. but also right up there as another very white city of the USA. Oddly everywhere near the Canadian border is pretty white.. from Washington to Montana to the northern parts of the Midwest to Maine. So I can see why it definetely looks like that coming from Canada.
Most of the immigrants seem to gravitate towards the big cities.. which are mostly in California, Florida, Texas, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Virgina (DC area) and Illinois definetely leading the nation by a far far margin - also they are where the mass majority of the population lives as well. All the major cities (LA, SF, DC, Chicago, NYC, Boston, Miami, Houston, etc.).
I guess certain places have a very unusual proportion of enormous amounts of immigrants and other places are seem completely void. Seemingly, everywhere near the Canadian border of the US seems to be pretty much void of any kind of immigration patterns.
Seattle as a city is attracting alot of outsiders though.. its pretty popular for young white Americans to move to.. there is also some Asian population there.. but I think its fairly low on the Asian list.. something like 10th or 12th State proportionately with Asians or something like that. And of course there are very very few african or latinos there.
But anyhow, you are probably right you didn't see those signs in Oregon or Washington, as they just don't have the immigrants there.. which is probably why so few immigrants move there - no signs, small communities, etc. Strangely though there is a huge huge chain super Asian stores.. (I forget the names) up in Portland and Seattle.. they are kind of like a Target Store or something.. but entirely of all Asian products and such. I think they are trying, but they are fairly low on the list of desireable cities for immigrants to go to. I've been to both Portland and Seattle however and love those cities as well. I really like Vancouver alot as well because of the population. Going to OR/WA looks alot like you say when I would come up from California.. just totally different worlds.. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Tiger Beer
As a long-time resident of the snowy white Pacific Northwest, I was curious about your demographics. I actually went to the census data and figured out the percentages:
Seattle- 70% white, 8.5% African American, 13.1% Asian, 5.3% Hispanic
Portland- 84% white, 3% African American, 5% Asian, 7% Hispanic
Boise (Idaho) 92% White, >1% Black, 2% Asian, 4.5% Hispanic
States:
Washington: 85% White
Oregon: 86.5% White
Idaho: 91% White
In terms of the big cities, clearly Boise is as white as white, and Seattle is actually pretty mixed, with Portland in the middle.
In terms of the States, Idaho is the whitest (of the three, but I think that it is a contender for whitest overall, but there is always Utah.)
I lived in Seattle for a long time, and what is most striking about it in terms of race is how segregated it is- the blacks live in one distinct district, for the most part, ditto the Asians, and north of the ship canal is white, really really white. I do believe that in the "International District" some signs are in Japanese. Announcements at Sea-Tac airport are in English, Spanish and Japanese. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty cool desultude..
I'm really into demographics.. i didn't realize Seattle was 70% white.. is that the 2000 census? I love Portland Oregon in particular.. BUT.. everytime I've ever been there its just been SO white I don't think I could live there again (lived there for awhile in 1994-1995).. great city though..
The last 7 years or so when I have lived in the States.. its been San Francisco or New York City.. and in NYC in particular.. to be an Americian white dude there is really really unusual.. much more common to meet Jamaican guy or a Russian guy.. but to meet an American white guy is just plain weird to most people.. African-American guy or Puerto Rican-guy.. sure.. maybe Italian or Irish who's from Brooklyn or the Bronx.. yeah, possibly.. but a white American guy with a mix of blood.. I was a freak and a half. Everyone, white black asian latino whatever asked me how that could be that I'd have 6 bloods mixed in? I told them I came from elsewhere in the USA but not on the East Coast.. they'd never heard of such a thing..
Seattle/Portland though.. I lived there quite awhile ago.. and every young white guy in the USA wants to go there.. back when I lived there.. all I ever met were white guys who just moved there from just about anywhere of the 50 U.S. states.. but particularly California and the Midwest (where I grew up)..
New York City was all everyone you could possibly imagine forming huge huge pockets of the city of all Sudanese, all Punjabi Indian, all Hasidic Jew.. whatever sub-type of whatever person was on the planet had entire neighborhoods of their own kind with all the shops and restaurants and such.. me, being an actual white dude with an actual American passport was just weird.. those white guys go to Seattle, Denver, Santa Fe, Portland, Austin.. but NYC.. sheesh man.. English is just one of many many many languages.. just another language.. nothing more than that.. you aren't in the USA anymore when you're in those parts.. you're in international no-mans land.. |
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Walter Mitty
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Tokyo! ^.^
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| matko wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| I realize your post was just being inquisitive.. maybe I overly responded.. and its not one of those things I guess you'd just know unless you'd been in the US. So its quite a fair question. |
I've been to the US many times. Mostly Washington State and Oregon and have never noticed any multi-lingual street signs (not billboards, actuall government approved signs). Maybe I am so used to seeing them, I never noticed. |
Did you ever venture down to Tacoma during one of your trips to Washington? One of the main drags there is a street called South Tacoma Way. Known to some as South Korea Way. Hordes of Korean businesses, many wiith their signs only in Korean. There's even a standard issue green and white sign that says "International Business District" in English and "Hanguk Town" in Hangul.
It's a cool little area. Only place I know of to get your Peppero, Bacchus, kimchi and noraebang fix iin a two-block area (in Washington state, anyways).  |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Tiger Beer said:
| Quote: |
| I'm really into demographics.. i didn't realize Seattle was 70% white.. is that the 2000 census? I love Portland Oregon in particular.. BUT.. everytime I've ever been there its just been SO white I don't think I could live there again (lived there for awhile in 1994-1995).. great city though.. |
Yes, those figures were from the 2000 census. I love Seattle, but because it is so segregated, I tend to find it too white also. In fact I think that it is the segregation that makes it seem to be a "white" city. That and the people there behave so white and middle class its almost Swiss.
I have lived, when in the States, in Miami for the last fourteen years. I also lived there as a child. When I was a child it was a very white city, with a large black population legally segretated into one little part of town, what is now Overtown and Liberty City. Then Cuba and desegregation happened. It has its problems, but Miami is now one of the most diverse and exciting cities I know. I love that everything is in both Spanish and English, with a smattering of Haitian Creole. You would have to be seriously brain dead to not learn some Spanish just by living there. |
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