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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: Is Korea best left to the Koreans? |
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Someone mentioned that once. And quite a few agreed. "Yes, Korea is fine for Koreans, but not for anyone else." That was the general drift of the thread a few years ago.
What would it be like if all foreigners vanished from Korea? Better for them?
They could say, yay, we love our closet of the world, and still blame troubles on the US or whoever?
Do they really want zero foreigners? Some do. Some are married to us, gulp, oh my god, waygooks.
In a society so intolerant to the outside world, how are we supposed to feel? |
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Swiss James
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| economically Korea is putting a lot of effort into attracting foreigners, how many people here actually paid for their own flight here for example- but even a casual glance at their history shows that most of the people who come to these shores weren't holdingbaskets of fruit and a winning smile |
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sadsac
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Gwangwang
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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They have don't want us here, but they need us here and that is a basic fact of life for most Koreans. Tolerance, not acceptance of our place in Korean society.  |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Swiss James wrote: |
| but even a casual glance at their history shows that most of the people who come to these shores weren't holdingbaskets of fruit and a winning smile |
I suggest that you get a refund from your history teacher, or return the books you were reading. The Japanese freed Korea from slavery, and the Americans defended South Koreans who were suffering under the collectives initiated by the marauding Northerners. This despite a complete withdrawal of their forces only a couple of years prior to the start of the Korean war. Education for all under the Japanese, and protection coupled with huge aid packages unde US influence. It was tantamount to a basket of fruit. After having lived under the yangban , or in Leninland I would have wanted a bit of it. |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I do not believe Korea is best left to the Koreans. Some of us have made a home here and, I believe, have the right to stand up for Korea, support Korea, and feel welcome here. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
| G-boy...the japanese traded a form of slavery (internal) for another submission to imperial rule for Koreans who all became second class citizens in their own nations. |
The Japanese got a bit naughty at times, but overall their impact on Korea was good. Ironically, the North's economic growth in the 50s and 60s was largely due to the infrastructure that the Japanese left behind. Lets not forget that many Japanese Koreans continue to live in Japan rather than move to Leninland or South Korea. |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally when I hike a mountain in Korea, I feel the mountian is happy for me. Had a Korean once say that our mountains have feelings for we have been climbing them so long, they speak to us. Well, this mountain was saying to me, thankyou for climbing, the locals have been keeping the rest of the world from climbing me, it is good to see somebody new. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Swiss James wrote: |
| but even a casual glance at their history shows that most of the people who come to these shores weren't holdingbaskets of fruit and a winning smile |
I suggest that you get a refund from your history teacher, or return the books you were reading. The Japanese freed Korea from slavery, and the Americans defended South Koreans who were suffering under the collectives initiated by the marauding Northerners. This despite a complete withdrawal of their forces only a couple of years prior to the start of the Korean war. Education for all under the Japanese, and protection coupled with huge aid packages unde US influence. It was tantamount to a basket of fruit. After having lived under the yangban , or in Leninland I would have wanted a bit of it. |
Japan must be a lovely place. Why is it that westerners who are apologists for Korea are always saying, "Yeah Koreans can be a little crazy but..." or "Korea might have some problems but..." whereas apologists for Japan just go completely off the deep end and fall in love with the place. Is it the bonsai trees? The oragami? What is it about that place that allows people to gloss over war crimes, brutality, imperialism, colonialism, common looting, and the systematic destruction of a people's culture? Maybe its the charming tea sets. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Homer wrote: |
| G-boy...the japanese traded a form of slavery (internal) for another submission to imperial rule for Koreans who all became second class citizens in their own nations. |
The Japanese got a bit naughty at times, but overall their impact on Korea was good. Ironically, the North's economic growth in the 50s and 60s was largely due to the infrastructure that the Japanese left behind. Lets not forget that many Japanese Koreans continue to live in Japan rather than move to Leninland or South Korea. |
That's a disingenuous argument. Japan did not develop Korea out of the goodness of their heart, but rather to facilitate its exploitation. The Roman did the same thing by building roads all over Europe. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Swiss James wrote: |
| but even a casual glance at their history shows that most of the people who come to these shores weren't holdingbaskets of fruit and a winning smile |
I suggest that you get a refund from your history teacher, or return the books you were reading. The Japanese freed Korea from slavery, and the Americans defended South Koreans who were suffering under the collectives initiated by the marauding Northerners. This despite a complete withdrawal of their forces only a couple of years prior to the start of the Korean war. Education for all under the Japanese, and protection coupled with huge aid packages unde US influence. It was tantamount to a basket of fruit. After having lived under the yangban , or in Leninland I would have wanted a bit of it. |
Japan must be a lovely place. Why is it that westerners who are apologists for Korea are always saying, "Yeah Koreans can be a little crazy but..." or "Korea might have some problems but..." whereas apologists for Japan just go completely off the deep end and fall in love with the place. Is it the bonsai trees? The oragami? What is it about that place that allows people to gloss over war crimes, brutality, imperialism, colonialism, common looting, and the systematic destruction of a people's culture? Maybe its the charming tea sets. |
Japan is the greatest nation in Asia in terms of scientific advancement, and economic power. The Japanese have been naughty at times, but their time in Korea was not as destructive as the Korean history books would have us believe. Literacy rates, economic growth, employment opportunities, all grew under Japanese influence in Korea. Before the Japanese were in town 90% of Koreans were slaves living in abject poverty. Even Japanese war crimes during world war two are grossly exaggerated such as the "rape of Nanking". |
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Dispatched
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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kids can be naughty, catholic school girls can also be naughty... to discribe Japan as having been naughty is a gross understatement. Kinda like describing the weather over Hiroshima on August 6th 1945 as 'a tad warm' |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| That's a disingenuous argument. Japan did not develop Korea out of the goodness of their heart, but rather to facilitate its exploitation. The Roman did the same thing by building roads all over Europe. |
I think the version of history I put forward is a lot less disingenuous than what you can read in Korean history books. |
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JacktheCat
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
Even Japanese war crimes during world war two are grossly exaggerated such as the "rape of Nanking".
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Don't go saying that in China. |
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indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Swiss James wrote: |
| but even a casual glance at their history shows that most of the people who come to these shores weren't holdingbaskets of fruit and a winning smile |
I suggest that you get a refund from your history teacher, or return the books you were reading. The Japanese freed Korea from slavery, and the Americans defended South Koreans who were suffering under the collectives initiated by the marauding Northerners. This despite a complete withdrawal of their forces only a couple of years prior to the start of the Korean war. Education for all under the Japanese, and protection coupled with huge aid packages unde US influence. It was tantamount to a basket of fruit. After having lived under the yangban , or in Leninland I would have wanted a bit of it. |
Japan must be a lovely place. Why is it that westerners who are apologists for Korea are always saying, "Yeah Koreans can be a little crazy but..." or "Korea might have some problems but..." whereas apologists for Japan just go completely off the deep end and fall in love with the place. Is it the bonsai trees? The oragami? What is it about that place that allows people to gloss over war crimes, brutality, imperialism, colonialism, common looting, and the systematic destruction of a people's culture? Maybe its the charming tea sets. |
Japan is the greatest nation in Asia in terms of scientific advancement, and economic power. The Japanese have been naughty at times, but their time in Korea was not as destructive as the Korean history books would have us believe. Literacy rates, economic growth, employment opportunities, all grew under Japanese influence in Korea. Before the Japanese were in town 90% of Koreans were slaves living in abject poverty. Even Japanese war crimes during world war two are grossly exaggerated such as the "rape of Nanking". |
I have no idea which history book you have been digging. But here some historical facts. In Chosun there were 3 classes : the 'Yangban'(the aristocracy), the 'Sangmin'(the commoner), and the 'Noby'(the slaves). The government took houshold(Hogu) census every 3 years. In some region it's records has been preserved. Here's the data for Ulsan.
year Yangban Sangmin Noby(%)
1729 26.29 59.78 13.93
1765 40.98 57.01 2.00
1804 53.47 45.61 0.92
1867 65.48 33.96 0.56
After the Sangmin's gained economical power, buying their own status of Yangban was very common in the later period of Chosun Dynasty. Oh there was poverty. Some people fled and became nomad. But 90% being in slavery? I guess someone needs a quick refund. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Japan is the greatest nation in Asia in terms of scientific advancement, and economic power. The Japanese have been naughty at times, but their time in Korea was not as destructive as the Korean history books would have us believe. Literacy rates, economic growth, employment opportunities, all grew under Japanese influence in Korea. Before the Japanese were in town 90% of Koreans were slaves living in abject poverty. Even Japanese war crimes during world war two are grossly exaggerated such as the "rape of Nanking". |
If you look at things simply in terms of economic or technological progess, then a case can be made for Japan's contribution to Korea. But there's more to the human perspective than that.
I've read accounts of Japanese soldiers tying old people down to their heated floors and basically roasting them alive. I also read something from a Korean man who only once saw his father cry, which was when he was forced to take a Japanese name. Even the name Korea is a japanization of Corea (you can argue that it doesn't matter because it's just romanization of another writing system, but it's what the Koreans preferred).
Some numbers in the Rape of Nanking might have been inflated, but the brutality was the embodiment of horror. Japanese soldiers tied mothers and prepubescent daughters spread-eagle to chairs and raped them side-by-side. The Japanese also had a game in which they tossed a Chinese baby into the air to see which soldier was quick enough to bayonet it first (or maybe that was in Korea). As Dispatched points out, naughty is hardly the word for this. In fact, its use amounts to pouring salt on wounds. |
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