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agraham

Joined: 19 Aug 2004 Location: Daegu, Korea
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject: What's wrong with Roh? |
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I'm not being facetious here, I don't know the first thing about SK politics.
What does he stand for?
What do his opponents stand for?
He's the guy behind the sunshine policy right? And I take it the Americans don't like that, because they prefer to isolate unfavored regimes.
But I thought SK people on the whole were in favor of engagement. |
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JacktheCat

Joined: 08 May 2004
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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President Roh is a perfect example of "The Peter Principle."
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in a hierarchically structured administration, people tend to be promoted up to their "level of incompetence" |
He seems like a nice enough guy, just way way out of his depth. |
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Daechidong Waygookin

Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I favor engagement too. But lets be reasonable. SK gives in to any demand the Norks make without putting any conditions on the aid. SK should put definite conditions on aid to the North. It seems that the bolder the Norks get the more the South gives them. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm coming to the conclusion that many of these SK folks look at themselves and their country and realize that to amount to anything in this world, they're going to have to join back up with North Korea. They have this fantasy belief that they will magically become some superpower nation where every Kim, Park and Choi from North to South will walk hand-in-hand and be happy forever. More wealth. More international power. More pure-blooded women to marry. More and better all-around.
It sort of manifested itself in the 2002 World Cup and has festered into this weird/perverse assumption that the US is holding Korea back from its success.
The sad truth is that the ones who go overboard and buy into this belief also seem to assume that everything up North will just magically become "theirs." They don't seem to think about how it might all backfire or not fit hand-in-hand. They don't seem to pay attention to the causes of the civil war 50 years ago. They haven't learned a damn thing from their mistakes.
War will all just happen again, in my opinion. Eventually.
They almost take the North Korean people out of the equation and thereby assume they will just assimilate into this wonderous mega-society based sheerly on the fact that they're all Korean brothers.
And the cheboels sit by and plot/plan/barter into whatever deals they can, because they know that a reunification would be the largest growth opportunity they could ever see in the life of the company. No large company will take a stand one way or another, because they've probably got some NK business idea waiting in the wings which could be jeopardized by the wrong action. |
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kangnamdragon

Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: What's wrong with Roh? |
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agraham wrote: |
He's the guy behind the sunshine policy right? . |
No, that was Kim Dae jung |
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: What's wrong with Roh? |
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kangnamdragon wrote: |
agraham wrote: |
He's the guy behind the sunshine policy right? . |
No, that was Kim Dae jung |
But he does seem to want to continue on with it's policies.
The problem with Roh is that he never really thought he'd be president. I honestly believe that he didn't think he could win. He thought he would lead the "strong opposition" and thats about it.
Now that he is in power though he is often caught off guard when those around him don't have the slightest clue what they are doing.
I don't think he's a bad man, I don't even think he is totally dishonest. i just think that he shouldn't be leading this country in the half-hazard direction he is. |
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Koreabound2004
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
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JacktheCat wrote: |
President Roh is a perfect example of "The Peter Principle."
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in a hierarchically structured administration, people tend to be promoted up to their "level of incompetence" |
He seems like a nice enough guy, just way way out of his depth. |
Hey JTC, I had never heard of that principle until now...it makes such perfect sense. Thanks for sharing.  |
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indiercj

Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:22 am Post subject: |
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sadsac
Joined: 22 Dec 2003 Location: Gwangwang
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Good civil rights lawyer, lousy president.  |
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redbird
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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sadsac wrote: |
Good civil rights lawyer, lousy president.  |
Well, at least the South Koreans have a president who succeeded at something. In the U.S. last year, our choices didn't exactly make us feel proud...
Not that anyone asked, but I wish the hegemon would just delegate this problem to mainland China and South Korea. We should ask those two countries to come up with a policy and then we'll help them achieve that policy, within reason. The stick should be that if China and SK can't figure something out-- and then if NK continues building nuclear weapons-- we may have to help Japan build a nuclear deterrent.
This isn't a situation where the U.S. can impose a solution. We might be able to motivate a solution, though. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
What does he stand for?
What do his opponents stand for?
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I'll give it a shot.
Roh was nominated by Kim Dae-Jung's party. They were called the Millenium Democtatic Party at the time. (Parties here change names even more often than they change underwear. It's next to impossible to keep up.) At some point, Roh's faction left the MDP and set up the Our Open Party--OOPs, as some like to call them. (Soon after coming in to office, the party changed the translation of the name to Uri, meaning 'Our'--apparantly someone told them what oops means.) Both parties were based in the Cholla provinces. (There is a large element of regionalism in Korean politics.)
Roh and DJ are 'progressives' (because liberal is a bad word here.)According to my Korean friends, Roh's only real campaign promise was 'reform'. No one ever seems to have gotten a straight answer from him about the specifics of what would be reformed or reformed into what.
There is a feeling that the rich got rich with goverment help (or had a leg up under the Japanese). I've never heard of a plan to raise taxes on the rich. So far, in 2 1/2 years the only thing I've heard is that the Party wants to hold 'investigations' about collaboration with the Japanese. (Stay tuned. Those hearings are going to be starting soon.) Other than smearing the reputation of past generations, I haven't heard of any plan to do anything about the distribution of wealth. At the beginning of the administration there was talk about not growing the economic pie, but in redistributing the wealth. That kind of talk quickly ended when the college grads got upset since they are having trouble finding jobs--and they are the core of Roh's support. OOPs.
Besides embarrassing people about what their grandparents did, Roh's other interest is in redefining the US-SK alliance. His government only admits to wanting a stronger say vis a vis the US. It is not clear just what he means by 'an independent voice' and 'the role of balancer in NE Asia'. Some think he wants an alliance with China. Others don't think he means to go that far. It isn't clear if he really disapproves of the North having a bomb. He did say he can understand why they would want one. Many Koreans think of it as a "Korean" bomb.
One of the loudest complaints about Roh's engagement policy has been that it does not respond or react to how NK acts. Just the other day Roh finally said that sometimes it's appropriate for SK to 'get red in the face'. But after 2 1/2 years of never criticizing the North for anything at all, it remains to be seen what getting red in the face might really amount to. (South Korea consistently abstains when the UN votes on human rights issues in the North.)
It is odd that right after taking office he and his party reduced by 2 months (I think) the time guys serve in the military (evidently to pay back his young supporters). It's odd because there was some 'surprise' when the US took out some troops to send to Iraq. OOPs.
Another odd thing: Yongsan Base. Back in the 80's the US agreed to move the troops out but each following government failed to come up with a place for them to move to. Then Roh comes in and the US said they'd like to move the troops out of the killbox, down to Pyongtaek. OOPs.
The other major party, the Grand National Party, is based around Daegu-Pusan, the hometown area of Park Chung Hee, Chun Doo-Wan, Roh Tae-Woo and Kim Young-Sam. It's current leader is the daughter of Park.
They are closely tied to the chaebols and are opposed to changing the nature of the US alliance.
DJ's party was still an important party until they joined with the GNP in impeaching Roh last year. When that collapsed, so did the MDP.
In the last election, the Labor Party came in third and got some seats in the legislature for the first time. I haven't seen much in the news about them. From what little I know of them, they seem a pretty standard labor/socialist party.
I'm sure you will get a different interpretation from someone else. |
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agraham

Joined: 19 Aug 2004 Location: Daegu, Korea
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks ya-ta et al, great executive summary. Can I impose on you again to tell me your view on this impeachment? I gather Roh's opponents wanted to impeach him for some fairly minor or non-political offence, kind of like the Clinton thing. |
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Here's my take on the impeachment...
For months prior to it the papers (chosun,donan,jongan) had all been attacking Roh. For the most part people in general were ignoring it but alot were starting to think that their "star" was not performing up to par.
many had elected Roh on a "clean up" campain (actually there was ALOT of anti-American sentiment at the time that he played on as well, but that is another point). He had been trying to keep true to his word.. in certain arenas, namely the big businesses.
The problem was that many of those big businesses that were mired in couruption were hand in hand with politicians. So, after a short time in office and a few attacks on business the truth started seeping out about how much the Uri party (and opposition parties) had been making off of illegal business donations.
This then led to a spat between the parties with the famous Uri quote of "You are cover in feces (a large amount of dung) while we only have a little bit of dirt on our hands". this was in reference to supposed reports that Uri only "took in" abut 20% of illegal funds the other parties had. It was at this point Roh put his neck out and said he would resign if Uri was proven to have taken more than "10% of the oppositions illegal contributions (in comparasin)."
The numbers never came back definitively and Roh never stepped down but the papers continued their assault. Roh often cried like a baby and said he'd step down if the nation didn't want him (i hthink I counted 5 times he stated this in one year), and each time gatheringsympathy from the public.
One the eve of his impeachment, Roh held a press conference o discuss the state ofthe nation.. and, his brother. It seems that his "innocent farmer brother" had been caught up in the termoil by accepting 20,000,000won from a biz exec. Now the poor old farmer of course could not refuse the money (the exec had an impressive car and intimidated him) so Roh instead had to "call him out". On air he mentioned the executives name and company and said something to the effect that "Korea doesn't need people like him."
A few hours later, after his name had been decimated by te president of his country, the exec jumped out of his office window. The newspapers were all over it and so was the opposition. By monday, the calls for impeachment were rampant and people were genrally talking about what an idiot Roh was (or at least his "mouth" was).
The problem then happened with the impeachment process. The parties BATTLED it out on the assembly floor and looked like total idtiots. The gneral public soon grew tired of it, then annoyed, then forgetfull, then supportive... of Roh! They wanted it to end, for the prez to be the prez, and for him to "just be more carefull when he talks."
A short time later there was a round of elections and Uri party swept into he majority. I'm sure it surprised them more than anyone else.  |
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