|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
|
 Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: Don't, Doesn't, Group nouns, etc |
 |
|
So as not to hijack another thread:
My class don't/doesn't... (can don't be used?)
Others in my class don't/doesn't...(How about doesn't?)
Both the class and I feel...(can I use "both" in this cirumstance?)
I know what the North American general usage answers are but I don't want to overlook the possiblity of other "versions" of English. 
As with the non-standard variations on *should* that the British have. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 5:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
The easiest rule for this is 1-2+ or 2+ -1. (Singular noun/plural verb or plural noun/singular verb. )
Class (singular) uses a plural verb (doesn't).
Others (plural) uses a singular verb (don't). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Don't, Doesn't, Group nouns, etc |
|
|
| turtlepi1 wrote: |
So as not to hijack another thread:
My class don't/doesn't... (can don't be used?)
Others in my class don't/doesn't...(How about doesn't?)
Both the class and I feel...(can I use "both" in this cirumstance?)
I know what the North American general usage answers are but I don't want to overlook the possiblity of other "versions" of English.
As with the non-standard variations on *should* that the British have. |
In British English, a collective noun can be treated as singular or plural. It depends on whether you are considering it as one entity, or referring to the individuals that make up the noun.
My family are a happy bunch.
My family is well known in these parts.
Using your example of class and don't/doesn't
My class don't get very excited about it.
My class doesn't have a good reputation.
Anyway, I'm sure there is a website that can explain it better than me....
Here we are:
http://www.onestopenglish.com/english_grammar/british_american.htm
| Quote: |
2. Verb agreement with collective nouns
In British English collective nouns, (i.e. nouns referring to particular groups of people or things), (e.g. staff , government, class, team) can be followed by a singular or plural verb depending on whether the group is thought of as one idea, or as many individuals , e.g.:
My team is winning.
The other team are all sitting down.
In American English collective nouns are always followed by a singular verb, so an American would usually say:
Which team is losing?
whereas in British English both plural and singular forms of the verb are possible, as in:
Which team is/are losing? |
Also:
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/grammar/archive/collective_nouns.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry...but it's "My class DOESN'T get very excited about it."
And "My family IS a happy bunch."!
"Family" is singular, as is "class"! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sid
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Location: Berkshire, England
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
The 'mistakes' you complained about on the other thread seemed completely 'standard' to me (I'm English).
I suppose one ought to say it's one of those BrE/AnE differences in which both ways are acceptable. But what confuses me is that if group nouns like 'class' or 'team' take a singular verb what do you then subsequently use as a pronoun... 'it'?? Or do you switch to 'they' and a plural verb? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Sorry...but it's "My class DOESN'T get very excited about it."
And "My family IS a happy bunch."!
"Family" is singular, as is "class"! |
Sorry, but you're wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sid wrote: |
The 'mistakes' you complained about on the other thread seemed completely 'standard' to me (I'm English).
|
That's why I added the smart-ass comment about "British" English in the other post. He made the same "mistake" in two different contexts. I assumed it was a usage issue across regions.
Hence me starting this thread.
Like I said, for me it grates on my ears to hear:
"My airline don't fly on that day."
And the other day I said something like "My class and I both hate the situation" or something along those lines. It sounded weird to my ear after I said it so I asked my GF and she called me on it and said you can't use "both" when using a group noun for class. I feel like maybe you can because the class is an entity sharing a common feeling, therefore singular. But not really worth calling off the wedding over.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
In British English, a collective noun can be treated as singular or plural. It depends on whether you are considering it as one entity, or referring to the individuals that make up the noun.
My family are a happy bunch.
My family is well known in these parts.
Using your example of class and don't/doesn't
My class don't get very excited about it.
My class doesn't have a good reputation.
|
Could you supply a context so it would be easier to understand why you chose singular/plural? As it is, I am guessing the reason for 'are' in the first sentence is because both 'family' and 'bunch' are collective nouns. Is that right? The two sentences with 'class' are especially confusing because I can't see a reason for 'don't'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| turtlepi1 wrote: |
| sid wrote: |
The 'mistakes' you complained about on the other thread seemed completely 'standard' to me (I'm English).
|
That's why I added the smart-ass comment about "British" English in the other post. He made the same "mistake" in two different contexts. I assumed it was a usage issue across regions.
Hence me starting this thread.
Like I said, for me it grates on my ears to hear:
"My airline don't fly on that day."
And the other day I said something like "My class and I both hate the situation" or something along those lines. It sounded weird to my ear after I said it so I asked my GF and she called me on it and said you can't use "both" when using a group noun for class. I feel like maybe you can because the class is an entity sharing a common feeling, therefore singular. But not really worth calling off the wedding over. |
My class and I both hate the situation.
I find this completely acceptable. Class is considered a single entity +"I", therefore the use of "both" is justified.
I'm sure to get flamed for this, but that's how I see it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Could you start a thread about "bring" and "take"? I find US usage of these words so confusing I hardly know whether I am coming or going.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ajuma wrote: |
Sorry...but it's "My class DOESN'T get very excited about it."
And "My family IS a happy bunch."!
"Family" is singular, as is "class"! |
Not in British English. Class and Family are collective nouns. In Brit. Eng. collective nouns can be either singular or plural, depending on context.
So, my family is a happy bunch, or my family are a bunch are correct.
To me, "My family IS a happy bunch" feels really weird. I would always say "My family ARE a happy bunch." I just typed off the top off my head when I came up with that example. However, reflecting on it, I picked a bad example as 'a bunch' is singular, so it is a confusing example - although a natural sentence to me. 'Round my end' you'd hear stuff like "His family are a bunch of nutters," which doesn't offend my 'middle class' ear at all!
I should perhaps have written something like:
My family are sick. They are all on medication.
My class don't get excited. They are calm people.
Perhaps the above makes it clearer for Ya-ta boy?
Don't take it from me, I'm just some idiot typing off the top of my head. Here is a better explanation from the
British Council
Here is another explanation
| Quote: |
collective noun
A collective noun, or group noun, is a noun which designates a group of people or animals. Crew, committee, gang, government, audience, family, and herd are all collective nouns.
When such a group is considered as a single unit, its collective noun is used with a singular verb and singular pronouns: The committee has reached its decision. But when the focus is on the individual members of the group, British English tends to use a plural verb and plural pronouns with its collective nouns: The committee have been arguing all morning over what they should do. American English usually uses a singular verb and pronouns in these circumstances.
A determiner in front of a singular collective noun is always singular: this committee, never these committee (but of course when the collective noun is pluralized, it takes a plural determiner: these committees). |
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/english/data/d0081767.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trigger123
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Location: TALKING TO STRANGERS, IN A BETTER PLACE
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
phew, ta bigbird me ol' sahn, i wus beginnin ta worry abaht we'ver me speech were correct or not there for a moment...
but doesn't this make the english language all the more colourful, because of it's many many differences in speech, grammar, spelling etc etc. it used to drive my dad barmy to hear our next-door neighbour, who's from the punjab (the neighbour not my dad), constantly using the present progressive to describe EVERYTHING he did and never, ever stopping for breath...
'yes mr trigger123, yesterday i am getting on the bus for the going to the shops and i am seeing this man who is driving in a most dangerous way and i am thinking what is he doing and...'
(you get the idea) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trigger123 wrote: |
phew, ta bigbird me ol' sahn, i wus beginnin ta worry abaht we'ver me speech were correct or not there for a moment...
but doesn't this make the english language all the more colourful, because of it's many many differences in speech, grammar, spelling etc etc. it used to drive my dad barmy to hear our next-door neighbour, who's from the punjab (the neighbour not my dad), constantly using the present progressive to describe EVERYTHING he did and never, ever stopping for breath...
'yes mr trigger123, yesterday i am getting on the bus for the going to the shops and i am seeing this man who is driving in a most dangerous way and i am thinking what is he doing and...'
(you get the idea) |
'Ey up c ocker! Ah knows 'ow to toowik reht propper, lahke. Dunt tha wurry thysen 'baht that, luv!
The present progressive does seem to be a major feature of Indian English. Myself I love it though! Indian English has it's own strange rythym and melody. It rocks! However, when I'm imitating it, I can't help wobbling my head from side to side!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
