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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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 Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: Egregious public textbook mistakes |
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The Korean elementary school textbooks are chock a block full of laughables, but I found one today that's simply criminal.
Can I have some water?
That's the title of the unit.  Great. So everything the kids learn in the unit is tainted. I spent a good part of class rectifying the situation by explaining the difference between "can" and "may".
"Teacher, can I use the bathroom?"
"I don't know, can you? And NO, you MAY not." |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Egregious public textbook mistakes |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
The Korean elementary school textbooks are chock a block full of laughables, but I found one today that's simply criminal.
Can I have some water?
That's the title of the unit. Great. So everything the kids learn in the unit is tainted. I spent a good part of class rectifying the situation by explaining the difference between "can" and "may".
"Teacher, can I use the bathroom?"
"I don't know, can you? And NO, you MAY not." |
Sorry, I fail to see your problem. 'Can I have some water' is a perfectly acceptable question, with may being a tad more polite. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Languages change.
Can is now acceptable in everyday speech. Thirty years ago, a teacher would teach "may", however it's no longer a strict rule. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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"Can" questions imply ability. "Can you swim?"
"May" questions imply permission. "May I have some water?"
It is not acceptable to interchange them, and neither one is "more polite" than the other. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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It's a little nitpicky, given how outright wrong so much of those texts are, but I see Mac's point.
Can I= am I physically able to do whatever?
May I= am I allowed to do whatever?
Most North Americans use the two interchangeably so I don't see it as a big problem. My biggest beef is the pronunciation of some of the people on the CD. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sure languages change (in usage), but that doesn't negate the fact that "can" is grammatically incorrect. Rules (as written in textbooks and such) rarely change. And I'm quite sure that even Korean English textbooks are attempting to teach grammar.
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Can or May?
Can as an auxiliary verb means "to be able to."
May as an auxiliary verb means "to be permitted to."
Incorrect: Can we talk?
(Well, if you can say it, you are able to talk!)
Correct: May we talk?
Correct: We may talk if you can listen to my side. |
So, once again it comes down to "Is it OK to be lazy with the rules" in the classroom? Since these kids will eventually be taking tests based on long established rules of English, the answer has to be "No". I concur with Peppermint, the CDs often have me in stitches! |
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Eunoia
Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Location: In a seedy karakoe bar by the banks of the mighty Bosphorus
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mack - if that's the biggest problem you have today, you should consider yourself lucky. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| stupidest thing with the elementary school books is that the MOE asked half a dozen FT's to proof read the texts and make corrections...then they didnt implement any of them. 6 teachers spent about 40 hours each correcting and editing the mistakes and then the MOE put out the books with all their imperfections and errors. Typical Koreans. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Our job as ESL teachers is CLEARLY to teach people how English is spoken, not to teach how English "should" be spoken. "Can I have some water?" is a perfectly normal English expression, and (at least in North America) "can" is used 99% of the time people ask for permission.
Even in our home countries, educators and linguists debate whether schools should use "descriptive" or "prescriptive" grammar texts. The "rules" of grammar are not important UNLESS they can be used as "rules of thumb" to help a student PRODUCE effective communication. There's nothing wrong with your textbook. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mack - if that's the biggest problem you have today, you should consider yourself lucky |
If only that were the case. As you know, Teachers' Day is Sunday, so the students brought cake and goodies for their homeroom teachers. For some odd reason, they felt that by this action they had earned the right to have an official "Go Apesh*t" day. We had a small scale riot and, among other incidents, a large classroom window was broken (not mine, fortunately).
My classes were for sh*t today. The kids were not listening, even when berated by my co-teahcers. On the other hand, since I work in a public school and have a Korean co-teacher I can just sit down and ride out the storm when the going gets hellacious. So, after all, I do count myself lucky, in the big scheme of things. In fact, I can hear a Korean teacher down the hall screaming at his kids this very moment. Ah, the raw pleasure of it... |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Mack you obviously come from the old school of strict adherence to grammatical rules. What the publishing, editing, and professional writing world has recognised for a long time is that can, can be used to ask for permission depending on the formality of the situation.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, tenth edition, goes one step further and says the battle is over and can can be used in virtually any situation to express or ask for permission. Reference: The Careful Writer by Theodore Bernstein. The Free Press: New York. 1998. p. 87.
Of course rules change over time, and you will find that most reputable grammar textbooks state that the modal verb can is used to expression permission, as well as ability. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The "rules" of grammar are not important UNLESS they can be used as "rules of thumb" to help a student PRODUCE effective communication. There's nothing wrong with your textbook |
Yeah, right.
And one day Korean kids will be saying "May you swim?" instead of "Can you swim?" and that will be perfectly fine as well, I suppose. While we're at it, why don't we just toss all the rules out the window! Rules. Hmmph! Who needs 'em?
I'll tell you who needs them. Korean students who will eventually be taking their college entrance exams, not to mention all the grammar tests they'll take from middle school until they graduate, which universities also take into account.
Yes, our primary job may be to facilitate effective communication, but this does not preclude the use of textbook grammar. Anybody can shoot a gun, but not everyone can hit the target...Might as well try to teach them to aim properly. Or is that simply too painful for someone who's forgotten the basic rules of grammar?
Let's say you're teaching someone to inline skate. Are you going to tell them "Ah, just throw away that stupid heel brake, there are hundreds of other ways to stop"? Sure, that's an extreme example, but that's also the basic mentality of people who think it's OK to just toss the rules. Gonna cause some damage down the line, guaranteed.
By the way, in conversation I bend, fold and break the rules like everyone else. In the classroom, however, I sharpen up.
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The Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage summed the distinction of can/may quite frankly by stating,
"In formal English a distinction is drawn between can and may. Can is used when indicating physical ability to do something: 'I can jump more than five feet.' May is used when indicating permission to do something: 'You may stay home from school tomorrow.' However, it is only fair to say that the distinction is often ignored, especially in informal speech and writing. That's rather a pity, for the distinction is a nice one -and not really very hard to remember." |
Yep, I think that sums it up nicely.  |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Mac on this one.
When a student asks me if the 'can' go to the washroom I tell them that I am sure they are able to ...why ask me? Havent you gone to the washroom before?
Nothing wrong with teaching some proper grammer instead of Americanizing everything |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The "rules" of grammar are not important UNLESS they can be used as "rules of thumb" to help a student PRODUCE effective communication. There's nothing wrong with your textbook |
Yeah, right.
And one day Korean kids will be saying "May you swim?" instead of "Can you swim?" and that will be perfectly fine as well, I suppose. While we're at it, why don't we just toss all the rules out the window! Rules. Hmmph! Who needs 'em?
I'll tell you who needs them. Korean students who will eventually be taking their college entrance exams, not to mention all the grammar tests they'll take from middle school until they graduate, which universities also take into account.
Yes, our primary job may be to facilitate effective communication, but this does not preclude the use of textbook grammar. Anybody can shoot a gun, but not everyone can hit the target...Might as well try to teach them to aim properly. Or is that simply too painful for someone who's forgotten the basic rules of grammar?
Let's say you're teaching someone to inline skate. Are you going to tell them "Ah, just throw away that stupid heel brake, there are hundreds of other ways to stop"? Sure, that's an extreme example, but that's also the basic mentality of people who think it's OK to just toss the rules. Gonna cause some damage down the line, guaranteed.
By the way, in conversation I bend, fold and break the rules like everyone else. In the classroom, however, I sharpen up.
| Quote: |
The Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage summed the distinction of can/may quite frankly by stating,
"In formal English a distinction is drawn between can and may. Can is used when indicating physical ability to do something: 'I can jump more than five feet.' May is used when indicating permission to do something: 'You may stay home from school tomorrow.' However, it is only fair to say that the distinction is often ignored, especially in informal speech and writing. That's rather a pity, for the distinction is a nice one -and not really very hard to remember." |
Yep, I think that sums it up nicely. |
Mack, I don't know what grammar books you refer to but all the ones I have on my desk have clear grammatical rules that state that can is used to ask for permission in informal situations.
Azar, Understanding and using English Grammar
Swan & Walter How English works
Murphy English grammar in use |
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agraham
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Location: Daegu, Korea
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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No way. I can't stand people who say "I don't know, CAN you?" It just makes me want to punch them in the face.
I NEVER say the word "may" except to mean "possibly". I never use it to mean permission unless I'm being exageratedly polite. And no one in my circles at home does either. To me it's like saying "forsooth".
But then I teach conversation class, not grammar class. |
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