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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:17 am Post subject: Amnesty USA backs off Gitmo as 'gulag' |
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Amnesty USA backs off Gitmo as 'gulag'
June 6, 2005
Amnesty International, which set off a storm by calling the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay "the gulag of our times," backed away from the label Sunday.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had ripped as "reprehensible" the description, made last month when the human rights group's secretary general, Irene Khan, issued its annual report.
Amnesty International was comparing American jails for prisoners in the war on terror with the "gulag" operated by the former Soviet Union. The Soviets maintained an extensive system of prison camps, many in remote Siberia.
On "Fox News Sunday," host Chris Wallace asked William Schulz, director of Amnesty International USA, if he stood by the description of the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, military prison.
Schulz responded by saying, "Clearly, this is not an exact or a literal analogy, and the secretary general has acknowledged that."
"In size and in duration, there are not similarities between U.S. detention facilities and the gulag," Schulz said. "People are not being starved in those facilities. They're not being subjected to forced labor |
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-gitmo06.html |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| It's probably a good thing. The administration was able to use 'gulag' as a way of changing the subject and distracting the public from AI's specific claims. (The old "If you can't refute the crux of the issue, quibble about the vocabulary" thing.) |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| The headline in that article is wrong. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| It's probably a good thing. The administration was able to use 'gulag' as a way of changing the subject and distracting the public from AI's specific claims. (The old "If you can't refute the crux of the issue, quibble about the vocabulary" thing.) |
I agree. Except that "claims" is hardly accurate, since the truth of what they have been saying has been corroborated, and more, by such sources as the Intl Red Cross and even the FBI.
When even the pro-war voices such as Thoimas Friedman are calling for the shutdown of Gitmo, the administration has no other rhetorical alternative than to latch onto a stray word and make the implication that Amnesty is anti-US for making comparisons to the Soviet Union, forget the fact that they were happy to use them as a source to make their "humanitarian" arguments against the former regime in Baghdad.
Absurd to watch this crowd claim to be the vanguard of freedom and democracy in the middle east when we are perpetrating this fraud. The truth is that Amnesty Intl has demonstrated a greater commitment to the principles of this country than the present batch of clowns and criminals ever has ...
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| The headline in that article is wrong. |
Yes. From the article - the part of it not quoted in the OP :
Schulz maintained that some similarities did exist, saying the United States keeps a network of prisons worldwide, "many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared." In some cases, he said, prisoners are being tortured and killed. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| It's probably a good thing. The administration was able to use 'gulag' as a way of changing the subject and distracting the public from AI's specific claims. (The old "If you can't refute the crux of the issue, quibble about the vocabulary" thing.) |
I agree. Except that "claims" is hardly accurate, since the truth of what they have been saying has been corroborated, and more, by such sources as the Intl Red Cross and even the FBI.
When even the pro-war voices such as Thoimas Friedman are calling for the shutdown of Gitmo, the administration has no other rhetorical alternative than to latch onto a stray word and make the implication that Amnesty is anti-US for making comparisons to the Soviet Union, forget the fact that they were happy to use them as a source to make their "humanitarian" arguments against the former regime in Baghdad.
Absurd to watch this crowd claim to be the vanguard of freedom and democracy in the middle east when we are perpetrating this fraud. The truth is that Amnesty Intl has demonstrated a greater commitment to the principles of this country than the present batch of clowns and criminals ever has ...
| Quote: |
| The headline in that article is wrong. |
Yes. From the article - the part of it not quoted in the OP :
Schulz maintained that some similarities did exist, saying the United States keeps a network of prisons worldwide, "many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared." In some cases, he said, prisoners are being tortured and killed. |
Uh-oh, the same person from Fox News has found your post and has given it a headline! "Bobster talks about two countries that have the letter U".
Sigh. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. Except that "claims" is hardly accurate, since the truth of what they have been saying has been corroborated, and more, by such sources as the Intl Red Cross and even the FBI. |
many of them haven't been
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| The head of Amnesty International's American branch yesterday acknowledged that he "doesn't know for sure" what is going on at Guantanamo Bay prison, |
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050606-123303-2127r.htm
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| When even the pro-war voices such as Thoimas Friedman are calling for the shutdown of Gitmo, the administration has no other rhetorical alternative than to latch onto a stray word and make the implication that Amnesty is anti-US for making comparisons to the Soviet Union, forget the fact that they were happy to use them as a source to make their "humanitarian" arguments against the former regime in Baghdad. |
why Gitmo isn't the gulag of our times.
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| Absurd to watch this crowd claim to be the vanguard of freedom and democracy in the middle east when we are perpetrating this fraud. The truth is that Amnesty Intl has demonstrated a greater commitment to the principles of this country than the present batch of clowns and criminals ever has ... |
I don't know how you can say that when AI slandered the US.
Yes. From the article - the part of it not quoted in the OP :
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| Schulz maintained that some similarities did exist, saying the United States keeps a network of prisons worldwide, "many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared." In some cases, he said, prisoners are being tortured and killed. |
[/quote]
You know that having somethings in common with something doesn't make it that thing.
Or from our other conversations maybe you don't. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Uh-oh, the same person from Fox News has found your post and has given it a headline! "Bobster talks about two countries that have the letter U". |
Can I have a link, please?
Hey, dude, it was you who pointed out that Amnesty did not in fact "back down" despite what the headline says or what Joo over there wants us to believe ... funny about how the parts he left out of the quote tend to show the opposite of what he wants us to think, eh?
Yeah, real funny, laugh a minute ...
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
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| I don't know how you can say that when AI slandered the US. |
Like this one - hilarious.
Hint : Rumsfeld and Bush and Rice are "slandering" America by allowing this tripe to continue. They built it, and it's existence is not a secret and has never tried to be kept one - it is illegal, and the Supreme Court has said so, and now they are slowly allowing tribunals, even though the tribunals completely ignore any testimony or evidence of abuses being committed there.
To say that Gitmo is "the gulag of our times" is pointing out that that Soviet prison has been dismantled, and there is today only the US that carries on secret detentions, 3 AM kidnappings, incarceration without trial or legal recourse on anything similar to the scale that Solzhenitzin described - this does not make it identical, but it does show similarities.
Oh, yeah, and further hint : calling attention to abuses that make America look bad is an effort to end those abuses, so that ultimately the US will not only look better but actually BE better. This is not slander - it is giving a damn.
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| You know that having somethings in common with something doesn't make it that thing. |
And you know that making a metaphorical comparison to something is not the same as describing equivalency. You know it and the spinmeisters in the White House know it ... and you know that the paragraph I quoted describes similarities top the Soviet gulag system, and you try to assert that this is not important.
Like I said, a laugh a minute.
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| Or from our other conversations maybe you don't. |
You wanna make THIS thread all about The Bobster, too? You REALLY wanna do that?
Laugh a minute. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, not only did AI not back down, but they also published a letter in the New York Times explaining why they used the term.
Who writes the headlines at Fox News anyway? Now I'm curious. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Like this one - hilarious. |
fact is it isn't the Gulag of our times
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| Hint : Rumsfeld and Bush and Rice are "slandering" America by allowing this tripe to continue. They built it, and it's existence is not a secret and has never tried to be kept one - it is illegal, and the Supreme Court has said so, and now they are slowly allowing tribunals, even though the tribunals completely ignore any testimony or evidence of abuses being committed there. |
If it illegal why haven't the courts or congress said so.
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| To say that Gitmo is "the gulag of our times" is pointing out that that Soviet prison has been dismantled, and there is today only the US that carries on secret detentions, 3 AM kidnappings, incarceration without trial or legal recourse on anything similar to the scale that Solzhenitzin described - this does not make it identical, but it does show similarities |
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Only the US? only in Bobsters' world.
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| Oh, yeah, and further hint : calling attention to abuses that make America look bad is an effort to end those abuses, so that ultimately the US will not only look better but actually BE better. This is not slander - it is giving a damn. |
For some , for others that hate America they are overjoyed with the propaganda victory.
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And you know that making a metaphorical comparison to something is not the same as describing equivalency. You know it and the spinmeisters in the White House know it ... and you know that the paragraph I quoted describes similarities top the Soviet gulag system, and you try to assert that this is not important.
Like I said, a laugh a minute. |
Fact is Gitmo isn't the Gulag of our times. is it or not?
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| Or from our other conversations maybe you don't. |
You wanna make THIS thread all about The Bobster, too? You REALLY wanna do that?
Laugh a minute.[ |
Uh no just set the record straight. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
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| Like this one - hilarious. |
fact is it isn't the Gulag of our times |
Explain to us the concept of slander as it applies to what the Amnesty Intl report said about Gitmo and the practices of the US in the GWOT. That was the hilarious thing you said, you know.
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| it is illegal, and the Supreme Court has said so, and now they are slowly allowing tribunals, even though the tribunals completely ignore any testimony or evidence of abuses being committed there. |
If it illegal why haven't the courts or congress said so. |
The Supreme Court has said that it is illegal to hold people indefinitely without trial and without access to cousel just because the president wants it that way. The tribunals are coming about very slowly because the Bushies are dragging their feet and appealing the thing up the whazoo like the cretins they are. This is true, it has happened, and I'll be sure to nudge you next time you fall asleep on us.
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| Quote: |
| To say that Gitmo is "the gulag of our times" is pointing out that that Soviet prison has been dismantled, and there is today only the US that carries on secret detentions, 3 AM kidnappings, incarceration without trial or legal recourse on anything similar to the scale that Solzhenitzin described - this does not make it identical, but it does show similarities |
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Only the US? only in Bobsters' world. |
Look carefully at what I said and tell me of another country that is doing this one the scale that we are - and recall that the Soviet gulags were so heinous at least partly because of the hypocrisy they embodied ... because they, like we, claimed to be working for the betterment of all mankind and spreading principles of freedom and democracy. But for now, just point out one country that is perpetrating this kind of garbage to the same extent that we are now.
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| Quote: |
| Oh, yeah, and further hint : calling attention to abuses that make America look bad is an effort to end those abuses, so that ultimately the US will not only look better but actually BE better. This is not slander - it is giving a damn. |
For some , for others that hate America they are overjoyed with the propaganda victory. |
Your solution is that we should all shut up and push this stuff under the rug, hide it because it might help some hypothetical enemy, and ignore the fact that it damages us as well ... and I suppose we should put our hands together and give "thunderous applause" while it's happening.
Well, sure, then, fine.
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| Fact is Gitmo isn't the Gulag of our times. is it or not? |
Let's be clear - is a metaphorical comparison the same as drawing an equivalence? Respond, please, and try not to dodge it again.
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| Uh no just set the record straight. |
The record is that I have ALways supported the American military and that my criticisms are ALways reserved for the policymakers. The record is that I care enough about my country to argue in favor of leaving a disastrous conflict behind us because it has done us harm, will do us more harm and has shown no benefit so far and little benefit on the horizon ... aw, fahgeddabahdit - you wanna turn every thread into a Joo-Bobster rematch, just give it up.
Last edited by The Bobster on Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050606-123303-2127r.htm
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Hmm...you like to complain about the sources cited by others, yet you cite a discredited Moonie rag.
Are you a Moonie?
Explain yourself or shut up. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050606-123303-2127r.htm
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Hmm...you like to complain about the sources cited by others, yet you cite a discredited Moonie rag.
Are you a Moonie?
Explain yourself or shut up. |
| Quote: |
Amnesty USA unsure about Guantanamo
U.S. wing of rights group says comparison to gulag 'not literal'
Updated: 1:25 p.m. ET June 5, 2005 |
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8108375/ |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Explain to us the concept of slander as it applies to what the Amnesty Intl report said about Gitmo and the practices of the US in the GWOT. That was the hilarious thing you said, you know. |
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| The Supreme Court has said that it is illegal to hold people indefinitely without trial and without access to cousel just because the president wants it that way. The tribunals are coming about very slowly because the Bushies are dragging their feet and appealing the thing up the whazoo like the cretins they are. This is true, it has happened, and I'll be sure to nudge you next time you fall asleep on us. |
get a ruling.
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Look carefully at what I said and tell me of another country that is doing this one the scale that we are - and recall that the Soviet gulags were so heinous at least partly because of the hypocrisy they embodied ... because they, like we, claimed to be working for the betterment of all mankind and spreading principles of freedom and democracy. But for now, just point out one country that is perpetrating this kind of garbage to the same extent that we are now. |
700 prisoners in GTMO compare that with a lot of nations.
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| Your solution is that we should all shut up and push this stuff under the rug, hide it because it might help some hypothetical enemy, and ignore the fact that it damages us as well ... and I suppose we should put our hands together and give "thunderous applause" while it's happening. |
the US should stop the practice but it doesn't need to give mideast fascists a propaganda victory.
They are not hypothetical.
Well, sure, then, fine.
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| Let's be clear - is a metaphorical comparison the same as drawing an equivalence? Respond, please, and try not to dodge it again. |
How is it the gulag of our times?
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| The record is that I have ALways supported the American military and that my criticisms are ALways reserved for the policymakers. The record is that I care enough about my country to argue in favor of leaving a disastrous conflict behind us because it has done us harm, will do us more harm and has shown no benefit so far and little benefit on the horizon ... aw, fahgeddabahdit - you wanna turn every thread into a Joo-Bobster rematch, just give it up.[/quote |
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the strategic situation was a threat to the US.
You won't condemn the insurgents , and you worry that the US is too powerful and you think that the US if they were to obtain strategic success in Iraq you say the US has to surrender it.
clear enough. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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You've dodged everythikng lobbed at you.
1) You have not explained your remark about slander as it applies to Amnest Intl's comments.
2) You can google Supreme Court Gitmo unconstitutional on your own, but you seem to expect me to do it for you. Very well, here it is.
CNN, July 6, 2004 : The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday handed down a mixed verdict on the Bush administration's war against terror, ruling that U.S. and non-U.S. citizens alike seized as potential terrorists can challenge their treatment in U.S. courts."
FOX (I know they're biased, but still) January 31, 2005 : "A federal judge ruled Monday that foreign terror suspects held in Cuba can challenge their confinement in U.S. courts and she criticized the Bush administration for holding hundreds of people without legal rights. "
Find the rest on your own.
3) You have not named one nation that is presently carrying out extrajudicial incarceration on the same scale as the US - it includes not just Gitmo, you know, but also the practice of rendition and the things going on in American-run prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan.
4) You have not so far said a word about the distinction between a metaphorical comparison and drawing an equivalence, though you see (without supporting it) to be saying that Amnesty Int;'s remarks do in fact draw an equivalence.
5) Finally, you are back again to snide comments and innuendo in order to call into question my loyalty to my country, completely irrelevant to any discussion here - your standard fallback when you have nothing to support your own case.
A sad little performance. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| 1) You have not explained your remark about slander as it applies to Amnest Intl's comments. |
It isn't a gulag of our times. and that is why they did back off from it. Gulag had no place in the converstation.
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2) You can google Supreme Court Gitmo unconstitutional on your own, but you seem to expect me to do it for you. Very well, here it is.
CNN, July 6, 2004 : The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday handed down a mixed verdict on the Bush administration's war against terror, ruling that U.S. and non-U.S. citizens alike seized as potential terrorists can challenge their treatment in U.S. courts."
FOX (I know they're biased, but still) January 31, 2005 : "A federal judge ruled Monday that foreign terror suspects held in Cuba can challenge their confinement in U.S. courts and she criticized the Bush administration for holding hundreds of people without legal rights. " |
It is on appeal as for the rest they ought to be able to challege their detention before a civilan authority. Somethings need to be fixed , but not everything.
doesn't mean the whole thing is illegal.
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Find the rest on your own.
3) You have not named one nation that is presently carrying out extrajudicial incarceration on the same scale as the US - it includes not just Gitmo, you know, but also the practice of rendition and the things going on in American-run prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
Most nations in the mid east, and not only there have it worse than GTMO, as for Abu Garaib and Afghanistan they are war zone prisons - probably better than the prisions that were in those nations before the US came.
Anyway the guy was talking about GTMO.
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| 4) You have not so far said a word about the distinction between a metaphorical comparison and drawing an equivalence, though you see (without supporting it) to be saying that Amnesty Int;'s remarks do in fact draw an equivalence. |
He didn't say "like the Gulag" he said it "was the Gulag".
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| 5) Finally, you are back again to snide comments and innuendo in order to call into question my loyalty to my country, completely irrelevant to any discussion here - your standard fallback when you have nothing to support your own case. |
Those who don't condemn the insurgents war can't be peace activists.
Those who worry that the US is too powerful aren't pro US if they also say that any strategic gains in Iraq must be surrendered cause they are ill gotten aren't pro US.
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| A sad little performance. |
chuckle , chuckle |
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