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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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 Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: A timeline of desecration |
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1987. Andres Serrano exhibits "Piss Christ," a photo of a crucifix submerged in his own urine.
conservatives, especially Christians: "Disgusting" "Blasphemous" "purely for shock value" "Insulting"
Liberals: "Brialliant" "Illuminating" "A triumph of free expression."
"Stop whining, Christains."
1996. Chris Ofili exhibits "The Holy Virgin Mary," cleverly incorporating elephant dung into her Mary collage.
conservatives, especially Catholics: "disgusting." "Blasphemous." "Purely for shock value." Insulting."
Liberals: "Brilliant." "Illuminating." "A triumph of free expression."
"Stop whining, Catholics."
2001 Despite international outcry, Afghani Muslims destroy what were the tallest standing Buddhas in the world, believed to have been carved in the third century.
2005 The Koran was "mishandled" and may have been placed in a toilet.
Afghani Muslims riot violently, shocked that a religious icon could be treated so.
Liberals: "Terribly insensitive." "Cruel and unusual." "Some religions and their icons should be treated with respect." |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| There is a strong element of truth in that. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Fine imagery.
But any implication that ALL liberals take that view would be wrong. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| There's definitely a double standard at work. On an related note I blame the NEA for the downfall of civilization. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
Fine imagery.
But any implication that ALL liberals take that view would be wrong. |
No, not all liberals are take that view, but there is definately a disproportionate amount of sensitivity in liberal circles when it is percieved that muslim sentiments have been offended. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
Fine imagery.
But any implication that ALL liberals take that view would be wrong. |
No, not all liberals are take that view, but there is definately a disproportionate amount of sensitivity in liberal circles when it is percieved that muslim sentiments have been offended. |
Yep, probably true expressed like that, and sadly I'd have to agree - more sensitivity to the feelings of others is a common failing. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| Yep, probably true expressed like that, and sadly I'd have to agree - more sensitivity to the feelings of others is a common failing. |
Seriously, what do you think triggars this disproportionate amount of sensitivity to Islam in liberal circles? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
1987. Andres Serrano exhibits "Piss Christ," a photo of a crucifix submerged in his own urine.
conservatives, especially Christians: "Disgusting" "Blasphemous" "purely for shock value" "Insulting"
Liberals: "Brialliant" "Illuminating" "A triumph of free expression."
"Stop whining, Christains."
1996. Chris Ofili exhibits "The Holy Virgin Mary," cleverly incorporating elephant dung into her Mary collage.
conservatives, especially Catholics: "disgusting." "Blasphemous." "Purely for shock value." Insulting."
Liberals: "Brilliant." "Illuminating." "A triumph of free expression."
"Stop whining, Catholics."
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Yes. And how many of these liberal desecrations involved FORCING Catholics(let's say) to see the Eucharist violated while being held against their will in prison, by an army supposedly on a mission to improve the lot of Catholics worldwide?
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2001 Despite international outcry, Afghani Muslims destroy what were the tallest standing Buddhas in the world, believed to have been carved in the third century.
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Okay. So the US army is no worse than the Taliban. That's sure something to be proud of. Actually, the Taliban is slightly better on this account, since those statues weren't actually being used by Buddhists for religious purposes at the time of their destruction.
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2005 The Koran was "mishandled" and may have been placed in a toilet.
Afghani Muslims riot violently, shocked that a religious icon could be treated so.
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Yeam what a bunch of over-reacting hotheads those Muslims are.
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Laksamana.Net - A Catholic mass in West Timor turned violent after a man refused to eat a Communion wafer, prompting worshippers to torch a police station and vandalize two others, leaving several people injured, reports said Wednesday (9/2/05).
The riots erupted on Wednesday morning after an Ash Wednesday mass at the Imaculata Cathedral in Atambua town, located on Indonesia뭩 border with East Timor.
Reports said the unrest was sparked after a Protestant man, who had joined his Catholic girlfriend at the mass, allegedly crushed his Communion wafer ?an action deemed blasphemous by the Catholic worshippers.
After the service ended, worshippers and others sought to attack the man, identified as Jacob T. (27), but he was given refuge in a priest뭩 room until police arrived. As police led the man away, the crowd demanded he be handed over and forced to apologize for his action. When police refused, the mob attempted to seize Jacob and fought with officers.
Police then fired warning shots inside the cathedral compound to disperse the crowd. Angry mobs later protested at three police offices and soon turned violent, starting fires and throwing stones. Police responded by firing more warning shots and calling for reinforcements.
At least three police were hospitalized and seven others injured, while some vehicles were damaged. Dozens of the protesters were injured, but there were no reports of any deaths.
Atambua Bishop Anton Pain Ratu said Jacob's action was considered an affront to the Catholic religion because the wafer symbolizes the body of Jesus Christ.
Appealing for peace, he told the rioters they had no right to take the law into their own hands. "I was more insulted than you were when the holy wafer, which we believe to be the representation of Jesus' body, was desecrated. But this does not allow as to kill a man," he was quoted as saying by state news agency Antara.
The bishop accused police of inciting the violence by firing shots outside the cathedral. "I regret the action of the police officers who opened fire in the cathedral compound, as this provoked the emotions of the crowd and increased their opposition,?he was quoted as saying by detikcom online news portal.
Ratu said a similar incident took place in the same area two weeks ago and a man was still under police investigation.
Although Indonesia is predominantly Muslim, most residents of West Timor, which is part of East Nusa Tenggara province, are Catholic. West Timor뭩 Belu regency, which encompasses Atambua, has been the scene of several religious clashes over recent years.
Belu Police chief Ekotrio Budhiniar said calm had been restored to Atambua by Wednesday evening, while paramilitary police and military reinforcements were deployed at strategic places in the area to prevent further violence. 밒 also apologize because my officers shot inside the cathedral compound," he was quoted as saying by Antara.
District police chief Fretes told Agence France-Presse the situation remained tense, with many shops closed and most people staying indoors.
Jacob was taken by police to the East Nusa Tenggara provincial capital of Kupang for questioning. Budhiniar said he would eventually be put on trial in Atambua. He is expected to be charged under the Criminal Code뭩 Article 156 on contempt of religion, which carries a maximum sentence of four years in jail and a fine of Rp4,500.
Belu Regent Joachim Lopez said he would hold talks with relevant agencies to discuss the matter.
Military Takes Control
Colonel Muswarno Musanip, chief of West Timor뭩 Wirasakti District Military Command overseeing security at the border with East Timor, said the Indonesian Defense Forces (TNI) would remain in charge of security in Atambua for at least three days to ensure there is no more rioting.
밫he main task being undertaken by TNI is to restore public order and prevent further anarchist actions," he was quoted as saying by detikcom.
He also said local police had been asked not to leave their barracks to avoid inflaming tensions with residents.
Musanip said TNI뭩 takeover of security was at the behest of local religious leaders and public figures. He denied that any provocateurs had infiltrated the crowd to incite the attacks on the police stations.
"The crowd뭩 action was purely spontaneous, resulting from anger that was triggered by the action of a citizen who took a wafer but did not eat it during the holy mass in Atambua뭩 Imaculata Cathedral. This citizen is now being detained at East Nusa Tenggara Police headquarters,?he added. |
http://www.laksamana.net/vnews.cfm?ncat=48&news_id=7901
Last edited by On the other hand on Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously, what do you think triggars this disproportionate amount of sensitivity to Islam in liberal circles?
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And when exactly DID you stop beating your wife?
I was at univeristy when Khomeini issued the fatwa against Rushdie. And I can tell you, all the precious little liberal artsy types were severely aghast at it. They even held a protest, where assorted English department profs got up and read a chapter from THE SATANIC VERSES, a book widely seen by Muslims as blasphemous.
What's the difference between Rushdie and the Koran-desecrators, at least from the liberal POV? Well, for starters, Rushdie wan't abducting Muslims and forcing them into little jail cells to hear readings from his supposedly blasphemous novel. But feel free to ignore this little detail, because the one trend I've noticed in all these deabtes is the refusal of the pro-American crowd to acknowledge the difference between acts of blasphemy commited by individuals and those commited by an army with powers of detention. It would strike me as a rather elementary distinction, but I guess not. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Actually, the Taliban is slightly better on this account, since those statues weren't actually being used by Buddhists for religious purposes at the time of their destruction. |
How stupendously ignorant and pig headed. You are so self absorbed that you completely forgot what those satues mean to Buddhists around the world. Buddhists believe that images can heal or produce miracles. You are so thick headed that you didn't realise this did you? Or maybe you were just misleading the board. Irrespective of which scenario is applicable you have displayed remarkable ignorance. How dare you suggest to this board that Buddhists aren't using those figures for religious purposes, when in fact they are. Before posting presumptuous garbage on this board do some reading on the subject at hand. One of the statues that was destroyed was believed to have been the world's largest Buddha figure too. You should get yourself on here and withdraw that false claim. In future, stop and think before striking the keys on your keyboard. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote:
Actually, the Taliban is slightly better on this account, since those statues weren't actually being used by Buddhists for religious purposes at the time of their destruction.
How ignorant and pig headed. You are so self absorbed that you completely forgot what those satues mean to Buddhists around the world. Buddhists believe that images can heal or produce miracles. One of the statues that was destroyed was believed to have been the world's largest Buddha figure too. Now you are aware that Buddhists do use figures (especially considering that one of those statues was not only very old but possibly the largest Buddha figure in the world) are you going to withdraw that ignorant remark about Buddhism? In future, stop and think before striking the keys on your keyboard.
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Where in my post did I say that Buddhists didn't venerate statues? What I said was that they weren't vernerating those particular statues at the time of their destruction. Unlike the Korans in the US military prisons, which WERE being used by people at the time of their desecration.
Let me give you a comparison. Bob inherits a beautiful old Catholic icon from his dead uncle, an art collector. Really nice old Madonna and Child painting, let's say. But he doesn't like Catholicism very much, so he takes the icon and scribbles all over it with crayons and stab it with a knife.
Second example: A few protestant cops go to a church to question a nun about a criminal matter. Suspecting that the nun is withholding information, they go over to the altar, grab a few transubstantiated hosts out of the cup, and start munching on them and saying "ooh, that tastes good. Got any peanut butter to go with this?" The ones they don't eat they flick on the ground and stomp on. One of the cops forces the woman to sit in the chair and watch this.
Now, are these two acts of blasphemy really comparable? |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
Fine imagery.
But any implication that ALL liberals take that view would be wrong. |
No, not all liberals are take that view, but there is definately a disproportionate amount of sensitivity in liberal circles when it is percieved that muslim sentiments have been offended. |
Yep, probably true expressed like that, and sadly I'd have to agree - more sensitivity to the feelings of others is a common failing. |
I like your dry wit, wangja.    |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| sssshhhhh, you'll wake 'em up ..... |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| What I said was that they weren't vernerating those particular statues at the time of their destruction. |
You don't have to be physically present in order to venerate statutes and images.
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| Where in my post did I say that Buddhists didn't venerate statues? |
It's not whether you were aware that they venerate statues, but more a question of whether you know how Buddhists venerate statues. The source of my gripe is your quote below, which constitutes clear evidence that you were indeed unaware of how Buddhists venerate their statues and symbols.
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| since those statues weren't actually being used by Buddhists for religious purposes at the time of their destruction. |
You claimed right here that those statues weren't being used by Buddhists for religious purposes at the time they were destroyed. How on earth would you - someone with a limited knowledge of Buddhism, know that? Buddhists all over the world were aware that this statue existed. It's not surprising considering it was perhaps the biggest statue of their figurehead in the world. They could identify its significance, its size, its durability, and conjore up its image. Buddhists all over the world believed it could make miracles, that it could heal. They believed in prayer that this statue's image could spiritually enpower them. Are you seriously suggesting that not a single Buddhist in the whole world conjured up an image of perhaps the biggest statue in the world dedicated to their spiritual leader on the day it was ruthlessly blown up by an evil regime? |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
Fine imagery.
But any implication that ALL liberals take that view would be wrong. |
No, not all liberals are take that view, but there is definately a disproportionate amount of sensitivity in liberal circles when it is percieved that muslim sentiments have been offended. |
Yep, probably true expressed like that, and sadly I'd have to agree - more sensitivity to the feelings of others is a common failing. |
Not more sensitivity to the feelings of others, only to the feelings of some others (depending on what current political correctness dictates). That was the point. And you're right, not all liberals take that view. It sometimes feels like it, though. |
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