Korean Job Discussion Forums

[dbee]

[Bulsajo]

Thanks for posting that and it should be pointed out that the comments on that article are at least as interesting and informative as the article itself- well, for the first 3 pages at any rate; I haven't had a chance to read all 26.

A sample:

It is amazing to see how many end-user only types sit here an spout off about why it doesn't make a difference. Well, to you it doesn't, so frankly, STFU!!!! Your opinion doesn't mean a damn thing. This discussion is for developers and people that have a clue as to how the web works. Microsoft has totally broken the idea of the Internet here. The Internet IS to be standards compliant. It is to be OS and application neutral. It was until MS decided they needed to kill Netscape. Have you ever written a complex website? Have you ever tried to setup ecommerce? It's a f***ing nightmare. Why? Because MS screwed the pooch on standards. You support them, or the rest of the world, doing both is like trying to change the orbit of the moon. And shouldn't be, and the Internet was designed so it didn't have to be. The web belongs to us not MS.

[The King of Kwangju]

I don't know why this article is getting so much attention.

No browser passes the Acid2 test. None. Not even Firefox.

Secondly, MS is working directly from Quirksmode and with the WASP to fix css rendering bugs, and is promising to get most of them in beta 2. And ie 7 is still in beta, which is the whole point of beta. It's not done yet.

Thirdly, ie6 pretty good. It just happens to be the worst of the current bunch when it comes to css.

Forthly, the average surfer has no idea what the 'peekaboo bug' is and shouldn't have to. Why would they boycott a browser because of some obscure rendering problem?

To me, this article was a throwaway. But it seems to be getting attention, I assume, because everyone likes a good ol' MS lynching.

[Bulsajo]

It's probably been made redundant by KoK's post, but I did come across another comment (page 5) which has links (that I have not yet visited) purporting to show how bad IE is. Anyway, FWIW:

I CAN'T BELIEVE SOME OF YOU DON'T SEE HOW BAD IE IS.

Sorry, I just thought that needed to get through to some of you. I won't bash Windows, it's not as bad as people think...

But IE has so many rendering errors it's not even funny. I develop web pages and have to STUDY IE ERRORS to get websites to render properly. An especially accurate, comprehensive reference to IE's rendering errors is http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html, "Explorer Exposed".

It's well known among web developers. You should read it if you think IE is all that. And then if you still have your head shoved up...well just read it.

Then read http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/07/28/ie7_css_upda/ this review of IE7. It's written, again, from a web developers point of view. Out of those 15 or so categories of CSS errors in IE, IE7 only fixed 3 of them! These bugs have been around for years!

Finally, MS came through on their promise to support PNG-24 images with real transparency. No more having to use crappy 256 color GIFs just because 85% of the web is too stupid to use something besides IE. That much I can be thankful for. These "extensions" that some of you have mentioned about being "4 or 5 years ahead" of other browsers? What, do you mean colored scrollbars? Custom cursors? The only things IE can do that other browsers can't are either cheesy (cursors, scrollbars), buggy (guillotine bug, pages flickering when using IE's proprietary alpha filters), or insecure (ActiveX).

So thank you Microsoft for at least making some progress. Those 3 bug fixes and especially PNG support will help me develop better pages. Now take care of the rest. Seriously, a company as big as Microsoft...they've accomplished about 1/10th of what I'd expect from them.

I won't bash their OS. They've done a lot to secure it recently, and Vista should have some good improvements. Tiger isn't as great as all the hype/buzz around it anyway. Safari isn't great either. But MS, your browser is the worst in existence.

But then there are posts like these:

Maybe you should have read the IE blog again before posting this - MS are shooting for CSS 2.1 Compliance in IE7. Your article is completely out of line, as it seems that surprisingly MS are doing the right thing this time.

And so it goes on and on, back and forth...

[SuperHero]

[dbee]

look KofK, it's not just about microsoft bashing in my opinion. The reality is that we've seen this kind of behaviour before with microsoft and we know exactly where it's heading.

remember the "DOS ain't done till lotus won't run" warcry of the 90's. M$ continually abuses it position in the marketplace for it's own benefit. In the process we the user end up with less choice, higher prices and crappier software.

if you believe that M$ is 'in the process of' conforming to web standards then you'll believe anything (in my opinion). The internet was given to us by a man named Tim Berners Lee, working from a research lab in switzerland. He still does his 9-5 like the rest of us, while the likes of M$, amazon and ebay attempt an internet version of daylight robbery. Abusing and patenting things which they never even invented.

They're taking something that doesn't belong to them, and the web community are standing back and letting them ...

[SuperHero]

[The King of Kwangju]

dbee - I'm not an english teacher anymore, I'm a web designer/developer. I make websites all day and some nights, so i know about the frustrations of developing for ie. I've also been involved in the Mozilla project for a few years now, donating my time and money. I regularly talk to members of the w3c and have had more nerdy discussions about mime types than anybody should have to have. I went to the Firefox launch "party" here in Canada - there were 15 attendees.

So I've suffered for web standards.

There's no way that MS will take over the internet, at least not the internet that I use. And I don't know the inner workins of MS. All I know is what their developers posted on their blog:

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

which looks like a nice list of bugfixes to me. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[dbee]

cool,

I guess maybe I'm getting a little worked up over it all ... I work as a part-time web developer too.

It just seems a little crazy when I see all the patents being handed out like confetti at the moment. I don't believe the microsoft is the root of all the worlds evils, but I do think that eventually everything should be open source and should comply with as many of the open standards as possible.

I think maybe I'll take the weekend off - before my eyeballs have to be surgically removed from my cathode ray tube