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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: A controversial read here, perhaps? |
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http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=749
Another interesting perspective on things taken from a forum I happened upon.
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#9
I understand your point, and clearly, fundamental Islam is as totalitarian as it is ubiquitous. However, methinks that the author of said publication should be able to choose to believe and behave anyway he/she sees fit. And too, he/she should be able to be defined as a Muslim, if that is their wish. A ray of light has broken through the tempest!
Christians run the gamut from fundamentalist aryans to gay universalists. Freedom of expression demands the same from Islam.
I was raised in a strict Christian upbringing, and while I have chosen to no longer believe the vast majority of the doctrines I was taught as a youth, I still hold to some of the basic tenants of Christianity that I feel are important (to me): compassion, caring, personal responsibility, eschewing of greed and hubris, etc.
If there is to be any hope for the Muslim creed, it will be to allow persons to pick and choose from the Koran and other liturgical writings of Islam. To allow free and unencumbered interpretation of those writings is critical if they want to become progressive and prosperous and happy people.
But perhaps, the majority is so steeped in literalist interpretations of the same, that the hope of a grassroots liberalization of Islam is unwarranted and wishful. If so, history will one day exact justice and penance.
A friend and I were talking about the possibility of the "soviet suitcase nuke" being detonated here in the states. If such an occurrence does indeed happen, the majority of the citizenry here (including myself) will demand swift and unequal retaliation (read: trident subs). I hope to never see that day, and the aforementioned manifesto gives me hope that there is still a path out of the mire for the Muslim world. Let's hope that there are those among them with the vision to see it!
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And here's another
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But Muslims have been at for 1400 years. If we could tote up all those slaughtered in their conquest of the Christian cities of Antioch, Constantinople, etc., their march across Africa, invasion of Spain, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, they would certainly exceed Hitler-Lenin-Stalin combined. Or exceed Mao. Or exceed the Japanese from the Russo-Japanese War through the colonization of Korea, invasion of China, and through the end of World War 2.
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It is interesting to read others views, sometimes you agree, sometimes you don't but it is non the less interesting. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:35 am Post subject: Re: A controversial read here, perhaps? |
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[quote="Summer Wine"]http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=749
Another interesting perspective on things taken from a forum I happened upon.
| Quote: |
#9
I understand your point, and clearly, fundamental Islam is as totalitarian as it is ubiquitous. However, methinks that the author of said publication should be able to choose to believe and behave anyway he/she sees fit. And too, he/she should be able to be defined as a Muslim, if that is their wish. A ray of light has broken through the tempest!
Christians run the gamut from fundamentalist aryans to gay universalists. Freedom of expression demands the same from Islam.
I was raised in a strict Christian upbringing, and while I have chosen to no longer believe the vast majority of the doctrines I was taught as a youth, I still hold to some of the basic tenants of Christianity that I feel are important (to me): compassion, caring, personal responsibility, eschewing of greed and hubris, etc.
If there is to be any hope for the Muslim creed, it will be to allow persons to pick and choose from the Koran and other liturgical writings of Islam. To allow free and unencumbered interpretation of those writings is critical if they want to become progressive and prosperous and happy people.
But perhaps, the majority is so steeped in literalist interpretations of the same, that the hope of a grassroots liberalization of Islam is unwarranted and wishful. If so, history will one day exact justice and penance.
A friend and I were talking about the possibility of the "soviet suitcase nuke" being detonated here in the states. If such an occurrence does indeed happen, the majority of the citizenry here (including myself) will demand swift and unequal retaliation (read: trident subs). I hope to never see that day, and the aforementioned manifesto gives me hope that there is still a path out of the mire for the Muslim world. Let's hope that there are those among them with the vision to see it!
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Ah yes. The old "pick and choose" tactic. "I am free to believe whatever I want and call myself whatever I wish regardless of the label's appropriateness." One is free to believe that Jesus was not the Son of God that he didn't perform any miracles and that he did not even exist, but if they kind of like the "love your neighbor as yourself" or "do unto other what you would have them do unto you," then one can refer to one's self as a "christian." I can also refer to myself as a "native American," I mean, I was born there. I am also "single." Sure, I'm married, but I believe there is only one of me, so I am, after all, single.
I am the walrus. Goo-goo-ga-joob. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I think the point the writer is trying to make is that in Western countries, dissenting voices from the Christian mainstream are unlikely to result in you being called an 'apostate' and sent to jail or possibly (as sanctioned in the Shariah) killed.
The fact that such views (which are basic facts) can be deemed controversial shows just how endemic political correctness is. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:37 am Post subject: ... |
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I would argue against Bigverne in that, were Islam the predominant religious majority, politically and socially speaking, and Christianity the minority at this point in time, there would be an extremist face put upon Christianity that didn't account for the majority of Christians.
As such, an individual quoting misdeeds in the Bible to label a religion of millions, if not billions, of people would be seriously wrong-headed, if not bigoted, in his attempt to handle said differences. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| were Islam the predominant religious majority, politically and socially speaking, and Christianity the minority at this point in time, there would be an extremist face put upon Christianity that didn't account for the majority of Christians. |
That's idle speculation and what's more, it's patently false. Let's just logically look at what you have written. Bhuddism is a minority religion in the world, yet it is rarely labelled extremist or violent, because, for the most part, it has not produced hundreds of violent groups intent on massacring civilians. Islam has. Hence, the difference in coverage.
The reason that some, like myself, label Islam intolerant and extremist, is because of its propensity to produce violent, intolerant Jihadi movements in every sector of the globe. It is because of the burning of churches in Nigeria and Indonesia, the calls to Jihad at mosques, the growing popularity of radical Islamic movements and the widespread hostility against religious minorities in Islamic states.
Once again you prove yourself adept at avoiding the topic being debated.
This thread deals with the fact that whereas diversity of opinion is an accepted reality within Christianity, it is far less so in Islam, and that expressing controversial opinions in Islam, regarding the divinity of the Koran for example, could get you in very hot water indeed. And by hot water, we are talking about imprisonment or a death sentence.
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| an individual quoting misdeeds in the Bible to label a religion of millions |
Would be perfectly within his rights to do so, if, and only if, there were numerous prominent and popular movements using the Bible to justify violence and oppression. This is exactly what is happening all over the Islamic world, and therefore to understand the roots of such violence and hatred we must look at what inspires such people, and such inspiration comes directly from the Koran and Hadith. |
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