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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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 Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:01 am Post subject: Men hitting women in public, negativity |
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MOD Note: This thread is split from another one about what korean men do that we would be punished for doing back home. An issue arose with this post about the role of firsthand judgements in one's negativity toward Korea and Koreans which later posters address.
HB
| Homer wrote: |
This thread could have been interesting.
However, it died a quick death and sank into the usual morass of cheap shots and prejudicial blanket statements that is all too often the case when it comes to Korean men or even Korean culture in general. |
That's easy to say, Homer, and I often want to say it myself. With this thread in particular, too. But something always prevents me from doing so. It's called pure, unadulterated, firsthand experience. But I often won't even trust my own judgment... Always like to see how other waygooks are handling it....
Used to live & work in Japan. Went to a lot of embassy parties there. The old "grand soiree at the ambassador's residence" sorts of affairs. However large or small the gatherings were, after the first hour the foreign guests could always be counted on to gravitate toward one of two very distinct groups: the Japan-lovers and the Japan-haters.
Been in Korea over 10 years. Been to innumerably more such parties. Hosted by diplomats of every nationality, race, rank, colour and time in country. Guess what? There's just one group here in Korea. 
I've never been to North Korea, but some of these Seoul-based diplomats and their families have (or they've friends who have), and they will draw you some eye-opening parallels between the two postings (only when the cameras and microphones are off, naturally).
News Flash To Homer! (a favourite line of yours) Korea, north or south, isn't an appealing place to be for most foreigners... not even the best-paid, most-privileged ones, whose job it is to say the complete opposite to the media.
That you should wonder why none but a thin minority of the rest of us normal people (you can include me in that number) would feel any different!
Painful as it is, you've really got to ask yourself why this should be? Real Reality can throw up link after link (boring us to tears as he does) explaining why this is so, and people can post reasons on this or many other threads that you seem to find "usual", or "cheap", or "all too often the case", or "prejudicial", or "blanket"...
But be honest with yourself and accept our views as valid. Who are we? You must not discount us as part of some anti-Korea conspiracy. We don't know each other. We come from different backgrounds, different cultures, different language groups. We are hardly a conspiracy, and if we are, who made us one?
The Guru
Last edited by JongnoGuru on Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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keithinkorea
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Well I think I'd get some funny looks in my hometown in the daytime and probably beaten if it happened at night. Saw two early twenties Korean guys standing around near SNU station. They were both wearing tight black t-shirts and expensive looking clothes and were well groomed. And one of them was giving the other a shoulder massage.
They were 'Korean guys' so they may have not been gay. Any two well dressed, well groomed guys doing that in England would probably get into trouble or at least have a few things muttered about them being 'shirt lifters and batty boys'. I'm not homophobic but people behaving in this way in the UK and lots of other western countries stand out. In Asian culture it is normal.
My old boss told me that there were no gays in Korea! I think Korea if you're not Korean is probably one of the best places in the world to be queer. You can hold hands with your BF or GF, dress up in pink furry sweaters or matching clothes, give them a massage or anything and it is seen as normal 'friend' behaviour.
Korean guys look gay by western standards but that in itself means nothing. We're not in the west are we?
PS. Can't believe that the word 'que_er' is bleeped. Maybe Dave has issues about his beret being called something along those lines?  |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Why do the vast majority of visitors notice the same negative things about Koreans?
Because it's true. Koreans have a lot of shortcomings when it comes to interacting with foreigners.
On the other hand, Koreans have plus-points (e.g. loyalty in friendship) which makes them a tolerable nationality. I wouldn't be here 3 years and planning my fourth if it were otherwise.
They have this system which they all understand and adhere to. It's a crappy system for anyone not born into it but, hey, it's theirs.
Oh.. things Korean men do.
Hold their cigarette in their teeth. They think it looks cool...but...it looks stupid.
Wear a "I work so hard" frown all day long. Here and Japan are the only countries I've been to where pulling a 14 hour shift is seen as a noble thing to do. I think if you work 14 hours per day for no extra money you are being made a monkey of. Stupid. |
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cheem
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| It's called pure, unadulterated, firsthand experience. |
You've got it backwards. These types of "race/gender #1 vs race/gender #2" threads are inspired not by experience, but lack thereof. I'd wager most who've jumped on this bandwagon have seen a Korean man spit on the sidewalk and heard about a Korean man beating up his girlfriend, but none can count more 3 Korean men as friends. I doubt anyone that does would participate in this type of thread.
Superficial observations breed superficial discussions. |
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lush72
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: I am Penalty Kick!
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cheem wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| It's called pure, unadulterated, firsthand experience. |
You've got it backwards. These types of "race/gender #1 vs race/gender #2" threads are inspired not by experience, but lack thereof. I'd wager most who've jumped on this bandwagon have seen a Korean man spit on the sidewalk and heard about a Korean man beating up his girlfriend, but none can count more 3 Korean men as friends. I doubt anyone that does would participate in this type of thread.
Superficial observations breed superficial discussions. |
I have more then 3 Korean male friends, I have seen many korean males physically strike korean females, and spitting on a sidewalk? Who is kidding who here? |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| lush72 wrote: |
| , I have seen many korean males physically strike korean females |
I haven't, by the way. But I guess since you guys have ALL seen it and I've never, it must be true.  |
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flutieflakes
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| i've been here for 2 years and clearly remember a man striking a woman 6 times............the worst was at the town festival where an older ajushi threw an adjuma to the ground and proceeded to kick her squarely in the face...............what korea do you live in corporal??????? |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Corporal wrote: |
| lush72 wrote: |
| , I have seen many korean males physically strike korean females |
I haven't, by the way. But I guess since you guys have ALL seen it and I've never, it must be true. |
Neither have I, and I've been here for 5 years, total, since 1996. I've seen plenty of Korean females strike Korean males, however.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just wondering why I've never seen it, and Corporal hasn't either, if it's an epidemic on Korean streets. |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just wondering why I've never seen it, and Corporal hasn't either, if it's an epidemic on Korean streets. |
Yep. In fact, what I am now about to tell you may strike you as very odd.  The amount of Western men in Korea is so much smaller than the amount of Korean men (weirdly enough). Yet in my three years here, I would have to say that I have far more often seen Western men making asses of themselves and harassing women (of any race) than I have seen Korean men doing the same. Ain't that a head-scratcher?
Oh, well, it must be just me. And Lemon. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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I do not undertsand the logic in that argument. Discounting what other people have said due to not experiencing it personally seems odd.
I could say that in 2 years in Korea I have seen a man punch a woman once. In 30 years in Europe I have seen it once also. Therefore I can conclude public violence against women is 15 times more common in Korea? I am not saying that is what I believe, but by discounting everybody elses experiences I would be able to draw such a conclusion.
Surely no-one will experience every different thing that others experience. Just because some do not encounter it does that mean those that have encountered it are telling porkys?
I must admit I agree with Lemon that it was an epidemic I would expect to have seen it more than once, but if others have I cannot just discount what they say due to my own personal experience. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| interesting that on the same page there's a thread asking if Koreans are racist and so many of the posters here have no trouble at all making wild generalizations about Korean men. . . |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| edgellskiuk wrote: |
Surely no-one will experience every different thing that others experience. Just because some do not encounter it does that mean those that have encountered it are telling porkys?
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Not sure if you're talking about me, but I really did mean this part:
| The Lemon wrote: |
| I'm not saying it doesn't happen. |
I don't dispute it happens, and I won't even dispute that it happens more here than at home - where there's smoke, there's fire. I do question its frequency, as reported on Dave's ESL by Western males who regard the Korean Man to be their mortal enemy and are highly biased in their reportage. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mortal enemy?? What are you on about? |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Mortal enemy?? What are you on about? |
My mistake. When Western males write about Korean men on this board, they usually do so in glowing terms. I beg your pardon.
Last edited by The Lemon on Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| Mortal enemy?? What are you on about? |
My mistake. When Western males write about Korean men on this board, they usually do so in glowing terms. I beg your pardon. |
My experience is that the Western males who have "made Korean men their mortal enemies" have usually done so only in reaction to first having been designated the enemies of Korean men themselves. Ne c'est pas? |
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