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Why So Many Great Thinkers Have Been Vegetarians...
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red dog



Joined: 31 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demonicat wrote:
Honest Question to all veggies: Why are fish below birds who are below cows who are below people? I always figured that all life was the same in value, and you just shouldn't eat yourself...er, your own kind...er, people.


Not all veggies would agree with those assumptions. I wouldn't. I think it's pretty clear that just about all animals feel pain and many of the same emotions we do, such as fear. (Plants don't have central nervous systems and couldn't move away from predators if they did feel pain and fear, so what purpose would those feelings serve?) I wouldn't want some (allegedly) superior alien life form to slaughter me, so I don't want to be responsible for the slaughter of other animals.
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death from above



Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Location: in your head

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots,
the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard,
tomorrow is harvest day
and to them it is the holocaust."

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although spirit-souls are all qualitatively equal (and eternal - there's no question of the soul ever dying...) when they are embodied in lower species of life they are relatively more covered over and have less developed consciousness. They automatically transmigrate to the next highest species at the end of each life cycle (evolving through plants, fish, insects, birds, and animals before again getting a human birth ...) A fish has a more developed consciousness than a plant, and so on.... By the time a spirit-soul inhabits a dog or cat's body there's relatively developed consciousness reflected by obviously more personality.

According to Vedic literature, three types of animals automatically transmigrate to a human birth their next life: monkees (in the mode of ignorance) tigers/lions (in the mode of passion) and cows (in the mode of goodness) (There are also many spirit-souls coming directly from the spiritual world - taking their first birth as humans and generating so much karma that they have to go through the entire evolutionary cycle of 8,000,000 other forms of life before getting another human form. Although the spirit-soul can't be destroyed, unnecessary killing of animals - especially ones with relatively developed consciousness that feel great pain and suffering - is prohibited because it also interferes with a soul's progressive spiritual evolution... The human form is considered more valuable than all other forms of life (even the cows) because only in the human form can the spirit-soul revive its original God-consciousness , inquire philosophically about the Absolute Truth, and make progress on the spiritual path through various systems of yoga and religion.

If a human unfortunately wastes this rarely attained form of life completely by making zero spiritual progress and living life more-or-less in animal consciousness, he runs the risk of descending again into lower species...
When it's necessary for survival and to maintain health there is no sinful karma incurred for killing - but - if available - fish should be eaten first, then fowl, etc. - and cows only if nothing else is availabe (or if they have already died of natural causes). Eating animals per se is not sinful - just killing them. But the way the modern slaughterhouse system is set up everyone that eats or buys meat is implicated in unnecessary mass killing when there's the availability of so many healthy vegetarian alternatives (and dairy products) produced through minimal violence...
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the_beaver



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rteacher wrote:
Although spirit-souls are all qualitatively equal (and eternal - there's no question of the soul ever dying...) when they are embodied in lower species of life they are relatively more covered over and have less developed consciousness. They automatically transmigrate to the next highest species at the end of each life cycle (evolving through plants, fish, insects, birds, and animals before again getting a human birth ...) A fish has a more developed consciousness than a plant, and so on.... By the time a spirit-soul inhabits a dog or cat's body there's relatively developed consciousness reflected by obviously more personality.

According to Vedic literature, three types of animals automatically transmigrate to a human birth their next life: monkees (in the mode of ignorance) tigers/lions (in the mode of passion) and cows (in the mode of goodness) (There are also many spirit-souls coming directly from the spiritual world - taking their first birth as humans and generating so much karma that they have to go through the entire evolutionary cycle of 8,000,000 other forms of life before getting another human form. Although the spirit-soul can't be destroyed, unnecessary killing of animals - especially ones with relatively developed consciousness that feel great pain and suffering - is prohibited because it also interferes with a soul's progressive spiritual evolution... The human form is considered more valuable than all other forms of life (even the cows) because only in the human form can the spirit-soul revive its original God-consciousness , inquire philosophically about the Absolute Truth, and make progress on the spiritual path through various systems of yoga and religion.

If a human unfortunately wastes this rarely attained form of life completely by making zero spiritual progress and living life more-or-less in animal consciousness, he runs the risk of descending again into lower species...
When it's necessary for survival and to maintain health there is no sinful karma incurred for killing - but - if available - fish should be eaten first, then fowl, etc. - and cows only if nothing else is availabe (or if they have already died of natural causes). Eating animals per se is not sinful - just killing them. But the way the modern slaughterhouse system is set up everyone that eats or buys meat is implicated in unnecessary mass killing when there's the availability of so many healthy vegetarian alternatives (and dairy products) produced through minimal violence...


Malarky.
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Dan The Chainsawman



Joined: 05 May 2005

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I may be ending up as a cow in my next life.

Last edited by Dan The Chainsawman on Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Demonicat



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Location: Suwon

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to disparage one's religious convictions, but rteacher I just can't wrap my mind around your post. Why are cows so damn good? (I personally think deer are much more pure). Why are tigers passion? (Here I can see it, but I like lemurs more). The big thing is the idea that eating a big mac means that I must live through 8,000,000 forms of life before getting to pay taxes again.
I should note that my fight is not against you, or Magic Wolfman, or any religious posters. Its against the concept of fear religions. Religions that boast love, but counter with suffering if you mess up or get unlucky. As far as cows being inedible; what else are they there for. They were created by domesticating the aurox ( a viscious beast). We "created" cows specifically for consumption, if we were to quit eating them they'd go extinct (no purpose=no farms=no support). Same goes for non-wild pigs, chickens, and all domesticated farm animals. By eating a few we preserve their genetic stock.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm wrong what have I lost - I now prefer eating vegetarian foods. If people who think that there's no bad karma in unnecessarily killing animals are wrong, they'll probably be unhealthy this life and find themselves in a worse situation the next life. (The same gambler's argument applies to belief in God and life after death...)
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red dog



Joined: 31 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What good is it to them to be bred for slaughter? Would we be doing humans a favour if we bred human slaves for slaughter? What is our "purpose"? I typed another reply a minute ago and I'm extremely annoyed because I lost it before I could post. Anyway, I don't share Rteacher's religious convictions but I certainly do agree that we have every obligation to make the least violent choices available to us. And you don't have to be a "great thinker" to see that, just a relatively clear thinker who is willing to take an honest look at the terrible things we humans do to other animals.
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red dog



Joined: 31 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan The Chainsawman wrote:
I think I may be ending up as a cow in my next life.


How come you deleted the rest of the post? It was upsetting, but maybe people needed to read it.
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RobotTeacher



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Location: I'm a Seoul Man

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:16 am    Post subject: Stay good riff.....stay good! Reply with quote

Okay....Question - So the fact that people kill animals and eat them makes them bad, right?

We're only supposed to eat greens, right?

.....uh huh......

And the great spirit Manitou will fly out of my ass, replenish the Buffalo herds, and allow the natives to all live in peace and harmony.

MAN IS NOT A HERBIVORE. (This is stolen out of Fallen Angels, I believe)

Check your teeth.

They do not have the thick enamel that all herbivores have to be destroyed by the dirt and grit that animals pick up when they eat grass or leaves (there is grit on leaves, I'll wait, go outside and lick one)

We did not adapt that quickly to running water, folks.

Sorry, but when I go back to Alberta, I'm gonna fire up the barbeque, throw a huge platter of deer steaks on it, hopefully Dad and my brother both bag their limit on deer this year, we'll have 4, and eat and eat and eat.

To anyone who wants to accuse me of killing helpless animals? Come up north and start checking statistics on car wrecks. Deer kill.

(Oh. I was raised by a pair of loving parents. Mom works for Fish and Wildlife, and the guy that taught me to shoot works for F&W in the conservation department.)
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Demonicat



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Location: Suwon

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, where do we start? Many environmentalists protest against bioengineered crops that could save the lives of starving millions? What do we do? Many people in Africa, Asia, and Latin America are in dire need of protein, and they won't get it from amarainth and soy. Meat is a not just a haughty option to many in the world. Would it be better to forbid meat and allow starvation? I'm rambling. One question then: If the world goes vegan tomarow, what will happen to all the livestock?
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hojucandy



Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just saw this thread! its a real gem!!!

yu are out of yr mind cultboy! yu have redefined stupidity!!

no way was jesus a veggo. its unlikely that buddha was even.

and i had to laugh!! yu include justinm timberlake and shania twain in a list of great thinkers! yu carack me up!!!

yu and prabhupad make a great team

dumb and dumber


vegetarianism is a good thing. i am not knocking it. i was vegetarian for 12 years.

but to suggest that it is a prerequisite to greatness is utterly insane. some of the greatest indian saints were not even vegetarians. nisargadatta maharaj, sai baba of shirdi, ziprianna baba.... not to mention the saints of the christian tradition.

there is a special corner in the hell yu created for fools like yu.
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Dan The Chainsawman



Joined: 05 May 2005

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was a kid I lived on a farm. We butchered animals for food. I remember one occasion that involved a cow my brother and I had raised from just a calf.

We used to shoot the cows with a lever action .30 .30 right between the eyes. Well of course neither my brother, and I wanted to be the ones to do this job. So we handed it off to a friend of ours. Now my friend was an interesting chap, but boy he had never shot anything before. The cow was tied up to a post chowing down on some hay, and well my buddy walks up to get a little closer spooks the cow, and the results are pretty difficult to forget.

The cow shifted, my buddy fired and hit the poor bugger right in the stomach. Of course the cow somehow gets loose and goes beserk running all over the place. My grandpa a gentleman with an electrical engineering degree got a hold of the rifle jacked a round in the chamber and dropped old bessie from about one hundred feet away with a running shot right to the head.

Now far be it for me to quote any great passages of noted thinkers, but a cow is to be consumed. So are pigs, and so are all other manners of animals. We humans are on the top of the food chain, it is a position adopted by our opposable thumbs.

Ain't nobody going to end up as a damn cow in their next life for eating a Double Whopper.
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Rteacher



Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A word to the wise is sufficient. "hojucandy" I asked you to refrain from your smart-ass comments that I consider blasphemy... Although there are other ignorant posters on this thread, you are by far the most offensive and envious...
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red dog



Joined: 31 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demonicat wrote:
The thing is, where do we start? Many environmentalists protest against bioengineered crops that could save the lives of starving millions? What do we do? Many people in Africa, Asia, and Latin America are in dire need of protein, and they won't get it from amarainth and soy. Meat is a not just a haughty option to many in the world. Would it be better to forbid meat and allow starvation? I'm rambling. One question then: If the world goes vegan tomarow, what will happen to all the livestock?


Uggggh!!!! I had a reply and lost it on this f------ computer!!!! Anyway, what I started to say is that the world isn't going to go vegan tomorrow, but a rapid, steady decline in the number of animals bred for slaughter would be a very good thing both for nonhuman animals and for starving humans. John Robbins did a good job of demonstrating how the animal agriculture industry harms both, because the resources used to produce animal foods could otherwise be used to produce more (plant-based) food for people who need it. There's a lot of information about this at www.earthsave.org.

I certainly hope that as part of the transition to a vegan world, many farms would close and many animals would be turned over to sanctuaries to live out their lives in decent conditions. It's unrealistic to expect that more than a tiny percentage could ever see freedom, but IMO they are not "resources" and don't deserve to be eaten or exploited in any way.

Dan, I'm glad you reposted that story, but I don't understand why after that incident you concluded that animals were here to be eaten. It sounds as if that was a traumatic experience and the cow was your friend. Why not support animal rights and try to prevent that from happening to other cows?
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