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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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(is Real Reality sleeping in today or have I just missed the thread?)
Koreans cast wary eye on world
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200510/14/200510142210035839900090409041.html
A new poll suggests that a few traces of Korea's history as a "hermit kingdom" still linger in modern South Korea. The poll suggests that the general public here has a strong distrust of neighboring countries and favors the acquisition of nuclear weapons to deter outside pressure.
In short, Koreans dislike the idea of integrating this country into the affairs of the outside world and cling to a suspicion of those who do not share their ethnic identity. Only 40 percent said Korea should increase its aid to poorer countries, for example, and two-thirds opposed the idea of easing the requirements for foreigners to obtain Korean citizenship. More than 57 percent rejected the idea that Korea should follow decisions of international organizations that differed from sentiment here.
Two-thirds of Koreans in the poll said they believed this country did not get the respect it deserved from the outside world, and an even larger majority, 72 percent, said any country had to have strong military power to survive in the world.
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I'm sure every little point will be neatly explained away by the usual suspects. Korea's lucky to have such likewise wary-eyed foreign friends. Even if they're viewed as suspicious characters who don't share Koreans' ethnic identity. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| The poll suggests that the general public here has a strong distrust of neighboring countries and favors the acquisition of nuclear weapons to deter outside pressure...72 percent, said any country had to have strong military power to survive in the world. |
Very true!
This is a product of history and resilience: the Koreans have maintained a strong sense of a national identity in the face of a long history of military domination by their neighbouring Japanese, Chinese and Mongolians.
In terms of their future:
China is growing militarily AND ideologically building a case to claim the ancient Korean Gugoryeo as part of their "multi-ethnic" state thereby justifying future Chinese control and assimilation of North Korea (and more of the peninsula, logically).
Japanese politicians have repeatedly tried to initiate discussions to build an underwater/bridge link from Japan to the mainland, and given their scientists' claims that Japan is slowly disappearing into the sea, there's a desire to extend Japan onto the mainland (gee, guess where?).
So, it IS in Korea's interests both in terms of lessons learned from the past and expectations of the future, to distrust its neighbours and to develop nuclear weapons.
The interpretation of the poll results is BUNK. The poll says NOTHING about Koreans wanting to return to being a "hermit kingdon". Business and cultural expansion worldwide is a different issue, and a wish many Koreans have expressed. Building a strong economy, with strong international corporations like Samsung, LG, KIA, etc, is seen by many Koreans as part and parcel with maintaining their freedom and independence as a country. |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| So, it IS in Korea's interests both in terms of lessons learned from the past and expectations of the future, to distrust its neighbours and to develop nuclear weapons. |
Do you approve of America's past development of nuclear weapons, VI? |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Do you approve of America's past development of nuclear weapons, VI? |
Do you think the Soviets weren't developing their own?
We did learn a few years ago from released documents that the nuclear bombing of Japan was unnecessary because the Japanese were willing to surrender with only one condition: keeping the Emperor on the throne. But the U.S. already had its post-war plans prepared and a centralized power figure like that would be a hindrance it was thought, so the bombing was done NOT as a last resort, but as an expedient means of ensuring post-war development in line with American industrial interests.
Naive I ain't, Barking Mad Lord Snapcase.
The great U.S. General MacArthur was relieved of his position as head of the U.N. Forces when he petitioned Washington to drop nuclear bombs on China in retaliation of its involvement in the Korean War.
The deterence value of having Korea join Japan and China as nuclear weapon holders has to be tempered by the likelihood of the weapons being used for reasons other than those initially intended.
But all things considered, the interests of Koreans to obtain nuclear weapons is entirely understandable and NOT AT ALL reflective of an anti-business hermit-like attitude or isolationist sentiment.
The funny thing is the Korean belief that a wave of culture and business might be followed by a great flood of Korean ways worldwide. But I have yet to hear or read any Korean impulse toward Imperialistic, colonial or even expansionary development (other than offhand reference to Koreanized areas of Manchuria). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Do you approve of America's past development of nuclear weapons, VI? |
Do you think the Soviets weren't developing their own?
We did learn a few years ago from released documents that the nuclear bombing of Japan was unnecessary because the Japanese were willing to surrender with only one condition: keeping the Emperor on the throne. .
). |
What documents are you referring to? Links please and thank you in advance. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| What documents are you referring to? Links please and thank you in advance. |
If you're interested do a search. It was big news for less than a week back in the mid to late nineties when some sort of freedom of info legislation forced the government to release documents that had been sealed for fifty years.
We read about and talked about it in journalism class.
I don't have the time to chase down references now. I'm heading out to lunch and a beautiful Saturday afternoon. Others might be interested in chasing it down though. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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But you must see how North Korea is using those nuclear weapons;
1. To gain recognition in the international community
2. To gain humanitarian aid on their own conditions
3. To insure that they gain more of what they want in the future.
It is the bully complex that the North has, they want to use their ability to threaten its neighbors to get what they want.
I strongly believe that the reason why South Koreans admire North Korea so much is because the North is seen to have the balls to stand up to the US. Many in the south view the US with utter distrust and they see the North as a "folk hero" for standing up to someone they don't have the guts to stand in front of.
What bothers me is that South Korea wants all this foreign investment without having contact with the outside world- someone should tell the south that is not how things work! In order to attract foreign capital into the country, they must open the doors more to allow foreigns to come and see what this country has to offer.
I met a guy on the subway recently who was the CEO of a multi-national, multi-billion dollar corporation in the UK. When I encountered him, he was asking around for directions to get somewhere, people kept on waving him off. It wasn't until I met him and gave him directions that I knew who he was.
I asked him if he would ever set up shop in Korea and he said "Good heavens no! I came here to see how things are done and I find the attitudes of the people here attrocious!"
I also had this discuss with one of my students and he said that Korea is sadly going back to the way it was in the 1980's and 1970's if it continues to be the way it is today.
Sometimes, Korea has the potential to be a great country if it stops acting like a petulent child in the international community
honestly, if I could, I would hand North Korea to the Chinese or Japanese on a platter on any given day. I think Korea doens't deserve to be unified. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
...
honestly, if I could, I would hand North Korea to the Chinese or Japanese on a platter on any given day. I think Korea doesn't deserve to be unified. |
I, on the other hand, think it does deserve to be (sometimes in a "serves you right" sort of way), but look beyond the "America Boogeyman" slogans and I doubt you'll find the majority of South Koreans are pushing/wishing really hard in that direction. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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The reason I don't believe that Korea should be unified is if it did unify, the nationalistic pride being exhuberated will be 20X worse than anything we have seen or witnessed before and I strongly believe that a nuclear armed unified Korea would be a greater threat than Iran or Libya because they would mix the communists with their sympathizers and combine them with the ultra-nationalists that would go to war with Japan.
I know the US has greater sympathy with Japan, so you can only guess which side the US would be on and which side China would be on......
And Jongno, you are right...most average Koreans don't believe that unification is the best way because of the economic costs of the process and the fact that the N. Koreans would be seen as competition in the already dried up job market. |
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indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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AbbeFaria
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's very telling that Koreans want respect internationally, but seem to not want to give respect to others. Atleast according to the things sited in the OP. Don't increase foreign aid, don't grant citizenship and don't do what the rest of the world might do on any given issue.
It sounds very much like they're saying "we are the best, and screw you if you don't agree" and then whining that no one else outside the penninsula seems to think so.
It might have to do with the whole "saving face" thing. I was reading an article once and the author said something in reference to China that's somewhat similar. It was in regards to China's attitude towards N. Korea. In a nutshell it said that China can't be seen to conceed to any point by the U.S. or Europe in how to deal with NK, unless it looks like they came up with it first, so they don't 'lose face'. It would seem that much of Korea has the same idea. Unless you allow them to think of, or do something first, they aren't interested in doing it.
-S- |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| lastat06513 wrote: |
| The reason I don't believe that Korea should be unified is if it did unify, the nationalistic pride being exhuberated will be 20X worse than anything we have seen or witnessed before and I strongly believe that a nuclear armed unified Korea would be a greater threat than Iran or Libya because they would mix the communists with their sympathizers and combine them with the ultra-nationalists that would go to war with Japan. |
Lastat, stop worrying so much. 20 times more nationalistic, 20,000 times more nationalistic -- who cares? For us few living here, if things ever got unbearable, we'd be the first to know it and we'd know what to do. Exit. But in the greater scheme of things, so what? Look, these people can hate the world, hate our guts, hate our countries all they want to, and for whatever pride-hurting insult or offence they want to imagine. But what does that get them, and how does it hurt us (beyond some hurt feelings)? Are their gripes really with us or with themselves? You and I and the rest of Planet Earth have better things to do than fret over what's winding up the Koreans this week. Or we certainly should.
'the ultra-nationalists that would go to war with Japan'...? Oh, those "ultra-nationalists". See, you confused me there because you said it as though that were some hard-core extremist-fringe notion, rather than a fairly common wet dream of good little Korean boys & girls who grow up with government-coaxed, media- & school-stroked "nuke Japan" woodies (well, the boys at any rate). But that wouldn't be anything new, would it? That's not specifically a _post-unification_ mindset, is it? And I'd expect, if it ever came to that, Japan would ready itself before the Koreans start talking about going to war with it.
| Quote: |
| And Jongno, you are right...most average Koreans don't believe that unification is the best way because of the economic costs of the process and the fact that the N. Koreans would be seen as competition in the already dried up job market. |
Ummmm, no. There will be plenty of reconstruction work to be done when that day comes, plenty of reunification-related jobs for everyone. That much is clear. What isn't clear is who's going to pay for it all while at the same time stabilising the economy in the south.
The North's in no position to help; it's the target of the spending. The (south) Koreans might turn to the Russians, being in large part responsible for dividing the country, and Moscow will say, "Sorry, the USSR doesn't live here anymore". Next to the U.S. where Uncle Sam will grumble, "After safeguarding and bankrolling your America-hating little... Okay look, all I've got on me is a quarter -- go knock yourself out".
Japan will point out that it's already paid the South decades ago and (by the time of unification will likely have already) paid off the Norks for normalisation of ties. China might offer to swing down and "restore order" up north for nothing, but who wants that?
Realising just how squarely the cost of reunification is going to land on their heads, (south) Koreans will turn to the international community -- perhaps in a "meekness & humility roadshow", perhaps in fire-spitting, blustering indignation, demanding that the world foot up the bulk of the cost because it's the world's own damn fault...
...at which point the international community will say to the (south) Koreans, "Okay, so you want the world and you want it now, do you? Lovely. Get in line".
And the fear of that scenario is why you don't find the majority of South Koreans pushing/wishing really hard for reunification. (Not because they fear hordes of bewildered, growth-stunted, malnourished North Koreans will suddenly show up here and start delivering our mail or driving the trains on the Orange Line.) It just might look otherwise most of the time because American troops in Korea make such a handy & visible distraction, punching bag and anti-unification boogey-man. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: Re: "Koreans Cast Wary Eye on World" |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Do you approve of America's past development of nuclear weapons, VI? |
Do you think the Soviets weren't developing their own?
We did learn a few years ago from released documents that the nuclear bombing of Japan was unnecessary because the Japanese were willing to surrender with only one condition: keeping the Emperor on the throne. But the U.S. already had its post-war plans prepared and a centralized power figure like that would be a hindrance it was thought, so the bombing was done NOT as a last resort, but as an expedient means of ensuring post-war development in line with American industrial interests.
). |
No. There were TWO factions in the government at that time. One wanted to surrender (but keep the Emperor) and the other wanted to fight to the "last man". There are several sources that show pictures of WWII era Japanese women and children drilling with bamboo spears to prepare for an expected invasion by Allied forces. Shows how determined they were. I believe there was a news story a while ago about a Japanese soldier who 30 (or more) years later was still hiding out in the jungle. They had to get his old commanding officer to come and order him to surrender. This shows the mindset that they had. The faction that favored surrender was just one part of the government.
As for the Emperor that would be keeping a large part of the problem. (You don't keep part of the rot in a tree. You prune it out entirely)
The Japanese regarded their Emperor as a god. This would conflict with the democracy the Allied forces eventually established. He had to go. Plus a conquered country does not get to set the conditions it surrenders under. Had they kept the Emperor this could be seen as a partial victory in Japanese eyes. He would also have been a focal point for insurgents to rally around. By utterly subduing the Japanese though, the Allied forces were able to go in and establish democracy and peace. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
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but Uncle Guru, I thought post uninfication NK was intended just as a closer source of 3D labourers  |
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