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Scientists discover possibl biological basis of human ethics

 
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Scientists discover possibl biological basis of human ethics Reply with quote

Researchers at UCLA have discovered that cells in a portion of the brain called the human anterior cingulate, which normally fire when you poke the patient with a needle ("pain neurons"), will also fire when the patient watches another patient being poked. In recent years, the hypothesis has been put forward that these "mirror neurons", as they are now called, may form a biological basis for ethics and morality.

In many religions, a cardinal tenet is what is commonly called the Golden Rule: "do onto others as you would have them do onto you." Dissolving the "self vs. other" barrier is the basis of many ethical systems, especially eastern philosophical and mystical traditions. This research implies that mirror neurons can be used to provide rational rather than religious grounds for ethics.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran06/ramachandran06_index.html
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denverdeath



Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but I didn't have time to read the article(s). I wonder though about the morality thing. Is it really biological? Or, is it more like a learned bhr or vicarious learning in that the person actually knows pain because they have experienced/observed it before? Wonder what results they would get if they used a flock of sadists/masochists as the experimental group?
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

denverdeath wrote:
Sorry, but I didn't have time to read the article(s). I wonder though about the morality thing. Is it really biological? Or, is it more like a learned bhr or vicarious learning in that the person actually knows pain because they have experienced/observed it before? Wonder what results they would get if they used a flock of sadists/masochists as the experimental group?


Good questions there. The website has some interesting articles on it sometimes, but they tend to approach things from the cognitive psychology perspective, and seem to underplay the effect of environment and culture on human development. The article struck me because it reminded me of some conversations I've had with Desultude a while back. (Wherever you are, des, happy new year! Very Happy I miss you.)

The author of the article claims that they may have found "a biological basis" for morality, but it's also arguable that they have merely found a physiological aspect of morality and ethics. Have these mirror neurons been found in non-western individuals, for example? And yeah, I wonder what results they would get if they used a group of clinically-diagnosed sadists/masochists?
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Gorgias



Joined: 27 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is certainly a biological basis to morality. Persons who are bothered to excess by their conscience can see a psychiatrist for relief. Also, it has long been known that certain railway spike style brain injuries cause persons to act as if without morals.

What is the difference between physiological and biological? Physiological considers normal or healthy function, biological is a larger term.
@Manner of Speaking,
Quote:
they may have found "a biological basis" for morality, but it's also arguable that they have merely found a physiological aspect of morality and ethics.

are you sure that's what you mean? That they have only found a biological basis for "healthy" morality? Sadists and non-Westerners would presumably have the same sort of human anterior cingulate, however the "unhealthyness" may be located elsewhere in the brain. Also, according to Discovery channel, this is not just a moral matter, if one watches a person grab a ball, the watcher's hand will flinch a little. I have noticed my own lips move a tiny bit while watching a kiss on television on more than one occasion.
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desultude



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The New York Times had an article on this recently. "Mirror neurons" actually could be part of an argument for culture and learned behavior- and psychological phenomena such as projection.

The first people to start looking at this stumbled on it when they were working with monkeys. A monkey hooked up to a brain monitor had the same part of his brain fire up that did so when he put food to his mouth when he simply saw a researcher put food to his mouth.

There appeared to be a lot of pretty solid research behind the claims of the article.

Yesterday's Times had an article on other brain research which showed that when a close spouse held their partner's hand, their stress and flight part of the brain calmed down. The closer the relationship between the spouses, the more the brain calmed.

Well, now I have to go out to the recycle bin and dive for the article.

(Hi MOS- well, as you can see, I have been reading the NY Times, among other things. Watched the State of the Union address live last night- when I see you we can talk about the real state of the union (US)- and it ain't pretty. Happy New Year, too!)
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorgias wrote:
What is the difference between physiological and biological? Physiological considers normal or healthy function, biological is a larger term.

Well, "biological" is their term, "physiological" is mine and I meant something more specific...referring to the precise, neural mechanism associated with having a sense of empathy towards someone experiencing pain. "Normal" and "healthy" are words that have normative overtones, perhaps "regular function" would be a more precise term.


Gorgias wrote:
Manner of Speaking wrote:
they may have found "a biological basis" for morality, but it's also arguable that they have merely found a physiological aspect of morality and ethics.

are you sure that's what you mean? That they have only found a biological basis for "healthy" morality? Sadists and non-Westerners would presumably have the same sort of human anterior cingulate, however the "unhealthyness" may be located elsewhere in the brain. Also, according to Discovery channel, this is not just a moral matter, if one watches a person grab a ball, the watcher's hand will flinch a little. I have noticed my own lips move a tiny bit while watching a kiss on television on more than one occasion.


Well...I think you have to read the article yourself to see what exactly they are getting at, and to answer your own questions. The discovery of these mirror neurons is interesting, but as you say it will also be interesting to see if they are found in populations of "amoral" individuals (however you define that) and in nonwestern populations.

All I mean to say is that this research could also be interpreted to say that morality is largely a cultural phenomenon, determined by society and culture, and that perhaps culture has "caused" these neurons to grow in these specific pathways in the brain. For those who argue about nature versus nurture, the research could be interpreted either way (IMHO).
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Des I wanna write more but I gotta meeting...good to see you TTYS!
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