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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:43 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: |
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As far as I can tell, Matthews was simply saying that bin laden was using rhetoric similar to that used by Michael Moore, not that Moore endorses bin laden. Plus, he referred to "an over-the-top Michael Moore", which I take to mean that it's not Moore's actual ideas that bin laden endorses, but a distorted version of them.
So no, I don't think he should apologize. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Yes.
And I think all of you should watch Good Night and Good Luck! |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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What a surpise: an idiot with his head up his ass making an idiotic comparison. He can't help purposely linking Moore to Bin Laden: he's genetically programmed to engage in hate-mongering and to make fallacious comparisons.
He should have been neutered, but can't expect him to apologize for his genetics. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Of course he shouldn't apoligize. Making a comparison between two people who loathe what the U.S. stands for is not even a stretch. More than that, he even says that Osama sounds like an "over-the-top Michael Moore."
I wouldn't have even said "over-the-top."
Why is this a question. Michael Moore can call whoever he wants offensive and mostly untrue names without apologizing. Why can't the same be done to him? |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
As far as I can tell, Matthews was simply saying that bin laden was using rhetoric similar to that used by Michael Moore, not that Moore endorses bin laden. Plus, he referred to "an over-the-top Michael Moore", which I take to mean that it's not Moore's actual ideas that bin laden endorses, but a distorted version of them.
So no, I don't think he should apologize. |
I think these are good points.
However, am I alone in thinking that comparing a film-maker to history's worst terrorist (a remorseless, even proud, mass-murderer of over 3,000 innocent people, including women and children) is somewhat slanderous?
One makes movies.
The other has a program of genocide. September 11th was merely the first "tick" in his to-do list.
Am I the only one who thinks that comparing the two is going just a little bit too far?
Does criticising America make one an enemy of America?
Whatever happened to, "I disagree with you, Sir, but will defend your right to speak"? (I forgot the exact words of the quote, as well as who said the words.) |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
As far as I can tell, Matthews was simply saying that bin laden was using rhetoric similar to that used by Michael Moore, not that Moore endorses bin laden. Plus, he referred to "an over-the-top Michael Moore", which I take to mean that it's not Moore's actual ideas that bin laden endorses, but a distorted version of them.
So no, I don't think he should apologize. |
I think these are good points.
However, am I alone in thinking that comparing a film-maker to history's worst terrorist (a remorseless, even proud, mass-murderer of over 3,000 innocent people, including women and children) is somewhat slanderous?
One makes movies.
The other has a program of genocide. September 11th was merely the first "tick" in his to-do list.
Am I the only one who thinks that comparing the two is going just a little bit too far?
Does criticising America make one an enemy of America?
Whatever happened to, "I disagree with you, Sir, but will defend your right to speak"? (I forgot the exact words of the quote, as well as who said the words.) |
Looks like you might be alone. Hilarious. "Yes, an American filmmaker is VERY much like the worst terrorist to ever strike our soil, perhaps with an ever-so-slight difference only in degree."
That last quote about "I disagree with you, sir...etc" was by a French man (Voltaire).
Last edited by mithridates on Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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bin Laden is an antiAmerican terrorist.
Moore is an antiAmerican propagandist.
Setting aside that information like his flames antiAmerican sentiment everywhere, and thus contributes to the terrorists' worldviews, if not to terrorism itself, there is little difference in bin Laden and Moore's antiAmericanism.
Mathews was dead on. And like Plig says, I wouldn't even have qualified the comparison. Better simply to say that he sounds like Moore, or vice-versa.
Troll Bait: Moore goes well beyond reasonable disagreement or criticism, and you know it.
Last edited by Gopher on Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hold on a sec. Look what I found:
The quote I do not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it is commonly misattributed to Voltaire, but is actually a summary of his attitudes, based on statements he made in Essay on Tolerance, by Evelyn Beatrice Hall (writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G. Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906)). |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Are Media Ganging Up on Michael Moore?; Interview With Bob Edwards
Aired July 4, 2004 - 11:30 ET
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOWARD KURTZ, HOST (voice-over): "Fahrenheit" boils over. Is the press ganging up on Michael Moore, or just reporting factual errors in his anti-Bush movie? And why is Moore accusing journalists of peddling propaganda?
NPR's Bob Edwards on life after "Morning Edition."
And the media's veep stakes. Breathless. Relentless. And often wrong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KURTZ: Welcome to RELIABLE SOURCES, where today we turn our critical lens on the movie that everyone in the media seems to be talking about. I'm Howard Kurtz.
"Fahrenheit 9/11" is Michael Moore's latest and most intensely political film, skewering George W. Bush over the war in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now watch this drive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: And love it or hate it, the partisans and the pundits have plenty to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": It is a deeply patriotic movie, and I think every American ought to see it.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": There's nothing deeply patriotic about Michael Moore.
BEGALA: It's deeply patriotic.
CARLSON: ... who has attacked this country.
BEGALA: He loves this country, and it's a -- the movie is a love letter to America. ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": He is a demagogue. He's anti-American. He lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a big, fat, unshaven bully.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: But journalists aren't just writing reviews of the box office smash, they're digging into what they say as Moore's cinematic distortions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though there are facts in this movie, on the whole it's not accurate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One character in this film suggests that President Bush is even worse than Osama bin Laden, one of the excesses and distortions that may undermine the credibility of Michael Moore's message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Moore is fighting back, hiring Democratic strategist Chris Lehane to run a war room against the film's detractors, and the liberal filmmaker has been getting in his shots at the media's Iraq coverage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; Someone said propaganda. Do you buy that? Op-ed?
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: No. I consider the "CBS Evening News" propaganda. What I do is provide...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MOORE: Why? Well, it's not a movie on that. It's...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what? Let's talk about your movie.
MOORE: But seriously, but why don't we talk about the evening news and this network and the other networks that didn't do the job they should have done at the beginning of this war?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: But joining us now here in Washington, "Newsweek" investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff. Christopher Hitchens, columnist for "Vanity Fair" and a contributor to "Slate" and "The Atlantic." And Bill Press, political analyst for MSNBC and author of the new book, "Bush Must Go: The Top 10 Reasons Why George Bush Doesn't Deserve a Second Term." Welcome.
Michael Isikoff, you say the film is just flat-out wrong on, for example, the question involving the bin Laden family after 9/11. Explain.
MICHAEL ISIKOFF, NEWSWEEK: The movie clearly gives the impression that a lot of Saudis were allowed to flee the country, to fly out of the country at a time when nobody else could, because of the political influence that the Saudis have with the White House and that they weren't adequately vetted by the FBI.
This is in some cases flat-out wrong. In some cases, he is raising a legitimate issue, but he's leaving out a whole lot. Mainly, that there has been an independence investigation of the Saudi flights after -- that took place after September 11. The 9/11 Commission looked at it. They determined that many of them were interviewed in detail, that they were screened by the FBI, and that none of them were wanted for or needed to be interviewed who had any information relevant to 9/11.
But most importantly, it says the White House approved these flights and gives the impression this was because of the Bush family nexus with the Saudis. Well, we know who at the White House approved the flights, and it was Richard Clarke, a holdover from the Clinton White House.
KURTZ: Christopher Hitchens, you write that the movie is "a piece of crap," "a sinister exercise" and "a big lie." I get the impression that you didn't like it.
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, VANITY FAIR: Actually, I didn't say the first thing. It's not my style. But if pressed, I probably would have wanted to say that.
KURTZ: Why do you dislike the movie so much?
HITCHENS: I made also some of the points that Michael has just made about the -- Moore must have known that Richard Clarke could say this. Maybe he did say it, and Moore didn't think it was useful, because it wouldn't work to say that Richard Clarke had authorized the flights.
So that's one small lie, but there's a bigger lie that it's helping to propagate. He says that the whole of American foreign policy is determined by the Saudi Arabian royal family. Now, the Bush administration has been to war with two of Saudi Arabia's friends. The Taliban, who they helped to impose in Afghanistan, and the government of Saddam Hussein, which they regarded as their buffer state against the Shia.
The actual history is exactly the opposite of what Moore's paranoid suggestions are. He openly says that he believes that the other side of this war, the Islamic jihad, torturers, saboteurs, beheaders and fanatics and murderers are the equivalent to the American Minutemen. So welcome to his contribution to the 4th of July celebration. The man is openly on the other side in this war, and the film shows it in every frame.
KURTZ: Speaking of the other side...
HITCHENS: What the Democrats are doing with such a person is beyond me. Beyond me.
KURTZ: Let me go to Bill Press. Let me go to Bill Press. You've practically written a blurb for this film. You called it a "must-see movie." Do you admire Michael Moore?
BILL PRESS, MSNBC: I'm here to defend the premise that the left can be as hard-hitting and sometimes as careless with the truth as the right.
KURTZ: But you don't approve of the careless with the truth part, do you?
PRESS: Michael Moore is a polemicist. He's making a point there. Look, is he -- does he get sometimes over the top? Absolutely. Does he put himself front and center?. Absolutely. Does he take the cheap shot occasionally? Absolutely. But they've talked about the lies...
HITCHENS: Does he believe the war in Afghanistan is about a pipeline that was never built?
PRESS: There are also -- there are also some basic truths that have come out of this movie -- if I can finish my opening statement -- one of which is that this administration and previous ones have been far too cozy looking the other way on the Saudis. And two, that this president led us into an unnecessary and unwise war. That is true.
KURTZ: So you're saying it's OK to distort the facts, as long as it's in the service of the side that you believe in?
PRESS: All I'm saying is, let's not have a double standard. OK? If we are going to pick, pick, pick, at everything Michael Moore says, let's pick, pick, pick at everything Bill O'Reilly says, Rush Limbaugh says, Sean Hannity says, and everybody else on the right.
HITCHENS: Excuse me. Can I just say? I have made a number of documentaries myself, including one that was in theaters, calling for Henry Kissinger to be tried for war crimes. And I'm not a friend of Limbaugh or Hannity, thanks all the same.
No one has ever made a factual objection to anything that appears in my movie or my book, as a matter of fact. They don't. Because they couldn't. Because I don't play fast and loose. Michael Moore says that Americans are being killed by people who he supports, incidentally, by jihadist guerrillas in Afghanistan because the Bush family wanted to build a pipeline. That pipeline project was abandoned in 1998. And Moore knows this perfectly well. What he says is flat-out false and sinister.
PRESS: I don't believe that.
HITCHENS: And his propaganda...
(CROSSTALK)
HITCHENS: ... deliberate, deliberate propaganda for the other side is...
KURTZ: Well, let's let viewers see for themselves, because I want to play a brief clip from the movie in which Michael Moore runs up to and accosts -- verbally at least -- Congressman Mark Kennedy. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOORE: Congressman? Michael Moore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing?
MOORE: Good. Good. Trying to get members of Congress to get their kids to enlist in the Army and go over to Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Now, what was left out of the trailer to the movie was Congressman Kennedy's response when he was asked about we're trying to find out whether members of Congress have kids in the war, which is "I have two nephews in the military." That wasn't used.
Do you find a lot of omissions in this movie as well? In other words, things that are kind of true are put in and things that might change the view are left out?
ISIKOFF: Well, yeah. I mean, there are glaring omissions. Such as on the pipeline issue, the fact that it was abandoned in 1998.
KURTZ: And this is a pipeline that Moore says that the reason we went to war in Afghanistan was so that Bush's pals could build an oil pipeline in Afghanistan.
ISIKOFF: The actual truth of it is quite fascinating, which is that this was a project that was being pushed in the late 1990s by Unocal, the oil company, and according to Steve Call's (ph) book on -- in which he deals with this, you're a managing editor, Howie -- he talks about how Unocal was having repeated meetings with the Clinton White House trying to promote the project, and getting a quite receptive audience. The problem is that the Taliban, clearly as they hardened their positions and became more and more a protector of Osama bin Laden, the project became untenable. Unocal turned -- and Unocal pulled out of it.
And then what Moore does in this movie...
(CROSSTALK)
ISIKOFF: What Moore does in the movie is then cut to...
HITCHENS: He's a liar.
ISIKOFF: ... a Taliban envoy coming to Washington in March of 2001 and suggesting that the Bush White House was embracing this project. Well, it was a dead issue at the time. It wasn't on the table. PRESS: I don't buy the pipeline argument at all for the war in Afghanistan. I think the war in Afghanistan was justified. What I want to make is, why suddenly everybody piling on Michael Moore?
(CROSSTALK)
HITCHENS: ... Taliban side of the war is why.
PRESS: I want to say...
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: You think he's been treated unfairly?
PRESS: We had an administration that put out lie after lie after lie about why we had to rush into war in Iraq, and the mainstream media just swallowed it hook, line and sinker and repeated it. And put it out on the network news, on the front pages of papers every day. Why...
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: Let me jump in. Let me jump in.
PRESS: OK.
KURTZ: Are there any parallels between "Fahrenheit 911" and your book, "Bush Must Go," where you say -- it's all in black in white. He lied us into war, he never tells the truth, worst president ever. Black and white.
PRESS: I will say this, OK, in my defense. I don't think you will find any untruth in that book. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Sure. I talk about the war in Iraq, I talk about the war on terror, I talk about the economy. But I'm very, very careful with my facts. But you know, I'm a journalist. I'm a journalist. Michael Moore is not. He's a filmmaker. He is a polemicist. He is the Rush Limbaugh of the left.
ISIKOFF: Can I...
HITCHENS: Documentary means documentary, I'm sorry. It is not kosher to tell conscious lies, it is not kosher to tell them in order to boost the cause of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KURTZ: I got to jump in here. First of all, I want to mention my pet peeve, which is the film opens with a suggestion that Bush stole the election, and Moore says that few people know that Bush's cousin at Fox News helped call the election for the president. "Washington Post," November 14, 2000, by Howard Kurtz, "Bush Cousin Made Florida Vote Call" for Fox News. So much for that. Now I also want to turn -- all right, I guess not that many people read it.
HITCHENS: No, I remember it very well. It was a very good piece.
KURTZ: I want to turn to what Moore has had to say about your profession, our profession, the media. Let's take a look at an interview he gave to George Stephanopoulos on ABC's "This Week."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOORE: I mean, listen, George, if the media had done their job, if they'd asked the hard questions of the Bush administration, about these weapons of mass destruction, demanded proof -- the media and everybody watching this knows this, got on board. They took the soup. They took the Kool-Aid. They just became cheerleaders for this war. And it was -- and that was a disservice to the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KURTZ: Michael Isikoff, doesn't Moore have a point that the press was less than aggressive in challenging the shaky evidence presented by Bush and Cheney in the run-up to the war in Iraq?
ISIKOFF: Yes, he does. I mean, I think that's a legitimate point. It's been made in a lot of media, you know, inquests since then.
KURTZ: "New York Times" editors know it, for example.
ISIKOFF: "New York Times," and I think we all could have been more aggressive. And there's been a lot written about this and a lot exposed about how intelligence was manipulated and overstated, and I think the media's been quite aggressive. My...
KURTZ: Christopher is shaking his head.
HITCHENS: Well, look, as someone who was in favor of the intervention, I remember thinking in the run-up before -- to it, that you couldn't -- you could hardly open "The New York Times" without being told the administration's claims were not up to much. And now I would say the media gives everyone the impression that Saddam Hussein was no problem with regards to either weaponry or contacts with terrorism. I think, by the way, that's a very dangerous misapprehension.
But Michael Moore's film shows pre-war Iraq and says, no problem. This was a happy place, a sovereign country. Which it wasn't. It was under international sanctions, for very excellent reasons, by the way, where children are flying kites. And everything is cool in Iraq. And so suddenly the nightmare weapons of American...
(CROSSTALK)
KURTZ: Moore uses the word cheerleaders. Journalists were cheerleaders for the war. Do you agree with that?
PRESS: I don't think they were cheerleaders for war, but I do think, as I said earlier, they swallowed the administration's line and reprinted it without doing the homework that they should have done. But the related issue on this, I think one of the strengths of the movie is that Moore shows some video that I have never seen before. I think most Americans haven't. That seven minutes of President Bush sitting there while the teacher continues to read "My Pet Goat." I mean, did he want to -- what was he waiting for? Did he want to see how it ended?
I mean, America was under attack. And if I may just finish, quickly, that this footage of Lila Lipscomb, the woman who lost her son, which is certainly the most powerful part of the movie.
HITCHENS: Nauseating.
PRESS: I have seen tons of interviews of families of troops in Iraq on network television. I've never seen one stand up and say, this war is wrong.
ISIKOFF: I actually agree with you on both. I thought those were the two most powerful parts of the movie, and I think the movie does raise a lot of legitimate questions and is provoking a lot of real debate.
My problem is that for many people, millions of people who are going to see this movie who don't perhaps read the media or watch CNN regularly, this is going to be all they know about what has taken place in the last few years, and it is...
KURTZ: The Oliver Stone argument.
ISIKOFF: Right. And it is a selective, highly selective use of the facts, and I think the media does play a role here in perhaps fleshing things out and sort of pointing out that which has been...
HITCHENS: And it comes from someone who is arguing for the other side. He is an advocate for the other side in the war.
KURTZ: We have got about 30 seconds. Does Moore try to have it both ways? He wants to be taken seriously as a documentarian, but when you press him on some of these points, he says, you know, I'm a satirist, this is just entertainment.
HITCHENS: Well, then he shouldn't say to people like Stephanopoulos, no, this is the truth at last. I mean, he can't have it both ways. But there is a truth about it, he should be taken seriously. It is a sinister thing that we make a culture hero out of someone who is in favor of the Taliban and al Qaeda and the Iraqi military.
PRESS: I say don't demand any more of Michael Moore than we've always demand -- ever demanded of Rush Limbaugh. He's got a right to be on the left the way Rush is on the right.
KURTZ: From the left, you're Bill Press. Michael Isikoff, Christopher Hitchens, thanks very much for joining us. |
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/04/rs.00.html
| Quote: |
We've got half of America and all of the rest of the world quoting Micheal Moore (search) on President Bush.
Let me quote Moore also, but I want to quote for you what he says about us � Americans.
"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet," Moore told Britain's Mirror newspaper.
"We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing."
Speaking to a crowd in Munich, Moore said. "That's why we're smiling all the time. You can see us coming down the street. You know, 'Hey! Hi! How's it going?' We've got that big [expletive] grin on our face all the time because our brains aren't loaded down."
Back in England, he told a crowd in Cambridge. "You're stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe."
Not even the outrages of 9/11 could dampen Moore's anti-Americanism. He said this four days after the terror attacks that killed 3,000 Americans:
"We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants."
And about the war now underway in Iraq, in which Americans are being killed in lockstep with Moore's anti-American speech, he says:
"The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the Revolution, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow � and they will win.''
There ya have it... just a bit of the man being hailed for producing a movie all of us must see. |
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125174,00.html
Supplemental remarks on Hitchens' views which I underscored for emphasis: Moore backs Sheehan, Sheehan backs Chavez, Chavez wants to bring the U.S. govt down.
Moore has not disassociated himself from her since her foray into Venezuela. Tacitly, then, he's behind it. |
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xeno439
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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"I may disagree of what you say, but I will defend to the death - your right to say it."
Can you tell exactly where this appeared in Voltaire's writings?
My favorite comes from Candid when Cacambo and Candid are discussing whether or not they should leave.
Cacambo: . . . it may not be agreeable, but at least it be new.
An attitude many of expats probably share. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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