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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: Bearded Arabs: 1 American Ladies 0 |
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Op-Ed from Lebanon's Daily Star
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It would seem to be a match made in heaven: bearded Arab politicos who wish to expand their own efficient constituencies and militias into governing systems that enhance the wellbeing of their fellow citizens; and the American ladies who combine the bouncy enthusiasm of young high school cheerleaders with the more daring inclination to engage in political genetic engineering in order to enhance the wellbeing of Arab citizens and the security of Americans, in one fell swoop.
This convergence and happy ideological marriage has not happened. Instead, Rice and Hughes, when they are not preaching democracy for Arabs, spend the few remaining hours of their days fighting the incumbency of democratically elected Arabs. In response, elected bearded Arab politicos like Meshaal, the head of Hamas' Political Bureau, and Sadr, who leads a powerful Shiite movement and militia in Iraq, increase their legitimacy and their impact through two parallel routes. They engage in electoral politics by being more responsive and accountable to the needs of their constituents, and they generate wider emotional and political appeal by defying Washington and its policies and presence in the Middle East. |
We just don't get it. That's the thing. I don't care how well we fund Al-Hurra, and how well we present our "case", fact of the matter is: actions speak louder than words. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Political Islam has steadily grown to become more incompatible with democracy than it used to be. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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how's that?
I'd say the opposite in fact. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: |
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That was a good article, BB. Thanks.
And of course you're right. The Bush admin's faith in p.r. initiatives is bizarre, to say the least, given the reality that actually exists on the ground. But I guess the alternative to all these travelling pep rallies is to admit that the cause is hopeless. And THAT would entail telling the American public that the costly and bloody mideast democratization project has been entirely in vain.
Remember back in the 90s, some preacher in Seoul announced that the Second Coming would occur on New Year's Eve, and convinced all his followers to sell their possessions and assemble at his church to await Christ's return? When Jan. 1st came around and Jesus failed to descend from the skies, the preacher's flunky went to the podium and said "we were wrong, you can all go home". That's pretty much the position Bush would be in were he to openly confess the failure of his vision for the middle east. With the added downer that tens of thousand Americans and Iraqis will NEVER go home.
But on the bright side, they HAVE managed to pacify Saudi Arabia. Oh wait... |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Great article. The US govt continues to send mixed messages and can't understand why they aren't trusted in the region.
What happens when you push for democracy in a region and they turn around and democratically elect the people you were fighting against?
I guess Algeria wasn't enough of an example. Or modernity and technology of the West just ensures that we have the attention spans of goldfish. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
how's that?
I'd say the opposite in fact. |
Sorry, I should have said radicalised as those types (Bin Laden) are opposed to any kind of democratic electoral process at all....even if that means having groups like Hamas elected....whom they disdain for even taking part. For them a country should be governed by the law of god/the Koran and not by laws made by mere mortals. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
... And THAT would entail telling the American public that the costly and bloody mideast democratization project has been entirely in vain. ..
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Not exactly. The Palestinians are tired of the infatah and Hamas, now that it is a political party will have to make some concessions in order to keep foreign aid going. Without it their "country" and government will collapse.
As for Iraq:
The Economist (not exactly a pro-Bush magazine) disagrees with this view. In fact they call Bush's vision of democracy for Iraq the ONE thing that he has gotten right.
Let's not forget some salient points as well.
(1) According to TIME and Newsweek, as well as the above mentioned Economist, American commanders are now meeting with "high-level insurgency leaders". Apparently the insurgency is finally beginning to run out of steam (although it is far from finished).
(2) "The insurgency" as is well documented is not one united force but made up of many disparate groups (some sources claim as many as 70 have been identified, although most of those only have a few dozen followers) Should America leave, a likely scenario would result in war among these groups as they struggle for power. They will never win the war against the majority Shia government for the simple reason that the Shias will not go back to the way things were before.
(3) There is a rapidly growing split between the foreign fighters (notably AQ) and the homegrown insurgents It is apparently only their shared hatred of the occupying forces that keeps them from each others' throats. Should America leave, they'd turn against each other. America should pull out and let them kill each other while supplying the government with military aid to keep it going.
(4) Much if not most of the army is trained now. There are three divisions (or is it brigades?) that are capable of going alone and resisting the insurgents . America should concentrate more heavily on training them and getting the rest of the army up to speed. More generous pay and incentives would also help. If they were really serious they could finish up by the time George Bush leaves the White House.
(5) Last but not least the oft-quoted view that "the whole country is a war zone" (by some posters on here) is false. Simply not true. The Kurds are not at war in their terrority. And the bulk of the violence is confined to three other provinces, and most of that is in one or two cities.
Granted the war in Iraq is far from over. But it is equally as far from being the hopeless case or another Vietnam that many people on here would like to make it out to be.
The majority of the population is sick of war and seems (according to the elections) to favour democracy as a means to govern the country. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't thnk OTOH was strictly refering to Iraq. The whole Bush speel was Iraq would be the beginning of democracy in the arab world. well when we resist hamas and hizballah's victories and look the other way when Egypt postpones elections, it really doesn't matter what happens in Iraq (nor how well we run a PR campaign)- our push in the region will look self-serving and BS. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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when we resist hamas and hizballah's victories and look the other way when Egypt postpones elections, it really doesn't matter what happens in Iraq (nor how well we run a PR campaign)- our push in the region will look self-serving and BS.
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I suppose the American hope somewhere is the radicalists will eventually become marginalized by the democratic electoral process; even the IRA has gone "mainstream" of a sort......specializing in extortion, drugs, and bank robbery now 
But I think we can be sure of one thing...Al-Quaida will always be working very hard to destabilize any attempts at establishing democracies in the ME. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| I don't thnk OTOH was strictly refering to Iraq. The whole Bush speel was Iraq would be the beginning of democracy in the arab world. well when we resist hamas and hizballah's victories and look the other way when Egypt postpones elections, it really doesn't matter what happens in Iraq (nor how well we run a PR campaign)- our push in the region will look self-serving and BS. |
True, he was talking about the Mid-East. But Iraq is usually the model held up as to why democracy will not succeed.
As for resisting Hamas and Hizbullah's victories, America has a long-standing policy of not negotating with any terrorist groups. Although this observance is flawed America can still use this to justify not supporting Hamas. Until Hamas renounces terror and recognizes Israel's right to exist, America has reasonable grounds not to recognize it as a legitmate government. There are several governments around the world today that America does not offically recognize and very few people get bent out of shape about that.
Plus Hamas needs foreign aid to keep the country running. No two ways about it. America and the EU should put the pressure on and extract concessions from Hamas (at a minimum what I suggested above) in order to get foreign aid and formal recognization as a legit government.
As for Egypt it did run some partially free elections and the Brotherhood did better than expected (a quarter of a loaf is better than none, no?). I think most people(in the Mid-East) recognize that democracy has to start with baby steps. It seems to be mostly the political left in the West that seems to be saying because there is little progress and there is not the same freedom in the West, democracy in the M.E is a failure.
Well no, it has to start small. We started with the Magna Carta (which pretty much gave only the noblemen [some] protection at first. Such changes take time and plenty of it.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Well no, it has to start small. We started with the Magna Carta (which pretty much gave only the noblemen [some] protection at first. Such changes take time and plenty of it.
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Good Point  |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| And THAT would entail telling the American public that the costly and bloody mideast democratization project has been entirely... ...vain. |
No doubt. No doubt....
In one of my more clairevoyant episodes, I saw this coming even before the idiots and illegalities combined to create what may one dy be seen as the single greatest calamity of American - and World - History... |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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It was a terrible day indeed when Bush won against McCain in the primaries. That was the start of it all.
I was in Japan at the time and didn't know anything about American politics but I always read everything in the newspaper to study, and I remember reading something around that time about Suupaa chuuzudei (��ー��ー����ー���ǫ�). I totally thought that it was a made-up Japanese word called Super Choose Day and filed it in as another on the wasei eigo list (wasei eigo is like Konglish); either that or the American political system was *really* weird.
Turned out later on that it was Super Tuesday of course.  |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Bucheon Bum wrote:
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I don't thnk OTOH was strictly refering to Iraq. The whole Bush speel was Iraq would be the beginning of democracy in the arab world. well when we resist hamas and hizballah's victories and look the other way when Egypt postpones elections, it really doesn't matter what happens in Iraq (nor how well we run a PR campaign)- our push in the region will look self-serving and BS.
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No, I wasn't just referring to Iraq, though that was the main country that I had in mind when I wrote the post.
When I said "democracy", what I really meant was the whole "package" that Americans were sold by Bush and Co, that is a democratic, secular, pro-US Iraq leading the rest of the middle east into a similar state of political existence. And I don't think that's anywhere near being achieved in Iraq, much less elsewhere in the region.
Urban Myth wrote:
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| We started with the Magna Carta (which pretty much gave only the noblemen [some] protection at first. Such changes take time and plenty of it. |
True. But then, the signing of the Magna Carta wasn't done under the sponsorship of a foreign power which had convinced its own citizenry to endorse a bloody invasion of England in order to bring about mass democracy. If that HAD been the case, then I think that the citizens of the invading nation would have been pretty ticked off to hear that all they were gonna see in their lifetime was a document limiting the rights of the king to beat up on the noblemen. |
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jinglejangle
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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Well no, it has to start small. We started with the Magna Carta (which pretty much gave only the noblemen [some] protection at first. Such changes take time and plenty of it.
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Good Point |
Yes, a very good point. |
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