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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: Australia Grants Asylum Visas to Papuans, Indonesia Upset |
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Howard firm on Papuan visas
By staff writers and wires
18apr06
PRIME Minister John Howard has ruled out apologising to Indonesia over Australia's decision to grant temporary asylum to 42 Papuan boatpeople.
Mr Howard said today Australia had nothing to apologise for over the decision, which has seen relations between the two countries plunge to their lowest point since the East Timor crisis in 1999. Australia's most senior diplomat, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade head Michael L'Estrange, will head to Jakarta for meetings with ministers and senior advisers to try to soothe Indonesian feelings.
Mr Howard said he expected to talk directly to Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono about the issue some time after Mr L'Estrange's visit. But asked whether Australia needed to issue an apology, Mr Howard said: "No".
"This is a difficult issue," he said on Southern Cross Broadcasting in Perth. "It's not an insurmountable problem, it's not an insoluble one, I'm sure we can work our way through it but it will take time. "And it will take commonsense on both sides and it will take, on both sides, respect for the other's point of view. "I respect the sensitivity of Indonesia towards the Papuan issue. "Equally, I ask Indonesia to accept that we have a procedure, we have a process according to our interpretation of law, and we don't intend to bend and vary that because it's the code under which we live in this country."
Dr Yudhoyono has signalled a review of relations between Australia and Indonesia, saying his country cannot be harassed, played with, or deprived of fairness. Indonesia insists Canberra had no reason to grant temporary visas to 42 of 43 Papuan separatists who landed in Cape York in January, claiming to be victims of human rights abuses.
Earlier today an Indonesian MP said Mr L'Estrange's mission to Jakarta would fail without ministerial representation. Yesterday Dr Yudhoyono declared Australia's tougher immigration rhetoric needed to be backed by "concrete proof" that it supported his country's territorial integrity.
Speaking at the opening of an annual forum on national development, Dr Yudhoyono departed from his prepared script to launch an attack on what he described as Australia's duplicitous attitude to his Government.
He said Indonesia wanted to continue "contributing to the world order", but immediately warned Australia: "Don't insult us, don't toy with us and don't deny us justice." Dr Yudhoyono received warm applause for his speech, during which he also warned: "Our position is clear: we must re-examine our co-operation and bilateral relationships with Australia so that they are genuinely fair."
Australia's toughened refugee policy has sparked allegations that the Government made the policy change to kowtow to Jakarta. Former Australian diplomat Tony Kevin today described Canberra's policy as "unethical, illegal and dangerous" and the result of having "caved in to Indonesian blackmail".
Writing in The Australian, Mr Kevin warns that Australia's policy of "appeasement" would lead only to further demands from Jakarta. "These policies send a wrong message, not just to the present fairly benign Indonesian Government, but also to darker extreme nationalist elements," he writes.
"The message: That an Australian Government can be threatened - even blackmailed - into abandoning essential values and interests. That is not a good message to send to any neighbour." The Australian Democrats have also hit out at Canberra's handling of the dispute, saying the Howard Government should not apologise for protecting 42 asylum seekers from the Indonesian province of Papua.
"They have no right to expect any more. I think our government has already kowtowed on the issue, we've ignored long-running ... human rights abuses in our region, and specifically in West Papua, for long enough," Democrats Senator Natasha Stott Despoja said on ABC Radio. "We've done the right thing by granting temporary protection visas to the 42 asylum seekers, it's now up to Australia to defend that decision, not to try changing our immigration laws in the wake of concerns expressed by the Indonesian government."
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,18844189%5E661,00.html |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| reason #535634 why Indonesia is a basket-case country. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| reason #535634 why Indonesia is a basket-case country. |
Basketcase is a little harsh. From near collapse in the wake of the IMF crisis to throwing off its 30 year + dictator to strengthening democracy and ending a major civil war that largely echos the current situation in Papua in a matter of 8 years seems to work against your assessment. What would you do with Papua? Grant independence thus giving rise to another near-failed state in the Western Pacific? Rescind all mining leases, bring the native Papuans into the loop and thus piss off a bunch of major western mining companies? Allow the rebellion in West Papua to continue, thus depriving a developing nation of a large amount of its revenue? I'm interested to know your ideas rather than hearing a piece of irrelevant punditry. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Allow the rebellion in West Papua to continue, thus depriving a developing nation of a large amount of its revenue? |
Depriving who, Indonesia? Let's not forget that Indonesia invaded Western Papua, renamed it Irian Jaya, and have attempted to ethnically cleanse that half of the island by importing thousands of Muslims. They have absolutely no right to such revenue.
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| Grant independence thus giving rise to another near-failed state in the Western Pacific? |
The only people who should decide the fate of Western Papua are the natives, and with the support of Australia and the international community, there is no reason why it would be a failed state. Then we can get started on helping the Hindu Balinese throw of the Muslim yoke. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Allow the rebellion in West Papua to continue, thus depriving a developing nation of a large amount of its revenue? |
Depriving who, Indonesia? Let's not forget that Indonesia invaded Western Papua, renamed it Irian Jaya, and have attempted to ethnically cleanse that half of the island by importing thousands of Muslims. They have absolutely no right to such revenue.
| Quote: |
| Grant independence thus giving rise to another near-failed state in the Western Pacific? |
The only people who should decide the fate of Western Papua are the natives, and with the support of Australia and the international community, there is no reason why it would be a failed state. Then we can get started on helping the Hindu Balinese throw of the Muslim yoke. |
Showing your pitiful knowledge of Indonesian history and politics once again. Papua has had a significant 'Muslim' presence on the coast for centuries. Go and read Desawarnana, a 14th century primary document for evidence that the region was under suzereignty of the pre-Islamic Majapahit empire.
Granted that the annexation of the province after the Dutch withdrawal was nothing more than a nationalist powerplay by Suharto, wanting to save some face for the nation in the wake of the debarcle in Borneo/Malaya. That being said, there is no state, to my knowledge who challenged the annexation, then or now. Sure it may not be morally right, but there are numerous examples of de jure sovereignty in practice around the world.
Your contention that Papua would not become a failed state is moot. Timor is the example I would look to. It sits on a considerable resource reserve (offshore natural gas) but still relies on heavy injection of foreign funds and technical support to survive day to day. Papua is massive by comparison, lacks all but basic infrastructure and is racked by divisions. Getting lowlanders and highlanders to agree on just about anything is a problem in itself. I'm sure you could make it work fine though, Verne, after all, you are the king of the easy answer.
That aside, there is no one sane person in the field of politics or international relations calling for a seperate Papuan state. Australia has reiterated on numerous occaisions under both Labor and Liberal governments that the territorial integrity of Indonesia is paramount to what they view as necessary for a stable region. You could join the likes of Greens senators Kerry Nettle and Bob Brown who are about the only dissenting voices. Their naive idealism would be a good match for your senseless oversimplifications.
I'm going to step up to the plate here and offer a solution. Not a quick fix, mind you, as the process of nation building is not one that happens over night. Firstly, there needs to be some kind of intermediatry action in the crisis before it becomes a fully blown refugee crisis on Australia's doorstep. I suggest a peace process similar to the one recently achieved in Aceh. Speaking of which, they were more than keen to 'throw off the yoke' of Javanese colonialism since the founding of the republic. Didn't hear a squeak from you about that. Oh yeah, ragheads don't count. But I digress. This process can only be predicated on the kind of autonomy and resource sharing agreement that was successful in Aceh.
Beyond this initial step, I want to congratulate the Australian government for its careful handling of the issue. In remaining engaged with Indonesia they won't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I would now refer you to John Gershman's article in Foreign Affairs vol 4 2002 where he indentifies two broad strands in the fight against terror and by implication the larger battle to secure democracy in southeast Asia. Firstly, the need for international policing and preventative efforts by regional governments to combat terrorism and enforce international norms. Secondly the need for western governments to increase the professionalism of regional armed forces. Australia has been doing the latter quite successfully since Bali and have succeeded in causing serious damage to the upper ranks of terrorist groups such as JI. The second point plays into any number of recommendations by the International Crisis Group who played no small role in the Aceh process. In retaining the already established military links, Australia is well positioned to help ammend the culture of brutality that has sadly existed in the Indonesian forces and persists to this day. In short, all these issues are linked and by retaining contacts, Australia acts in its own, Indonesias and broader regional interests. Again, simple empty tabloid banter like yours is at best short sighted, at worst evil in its oversimplification of the matter.
Finally, your quip about Bali shows that you are nothing more than a prize 4ss. If you had one iota of knowledge on the subject you might care to notice that the Bali is one of the largest support bases for Nationalist political parties, in particular the PDI. Two presidents have had close connection to the Island and I am yet to meet a single Balinese in my almost 15 years of experience in Indonesia and with Indonesians who champion the cause of an independent Bali. Sure there are tensions between the Balinese and outsiders. Regionalism is not uncommon in countries that contain a plurality of ethnicities. Strike me dead, the Scots do their fair share of moaning about the English. In the case of secessionist movements in Indonesia though, you have come dead last with the special reading kiddies on this point. Its simply a case of you projecting your maladjusted agenda.
Finally, just in case anyone is thinking of playing the wife card again (I'm married to an Indonesian for those who don't know) and claiming irrational bias on my behalf, rest assured I have a list of grievances with the state of play in Indonesia as long as my arm. I love the place enough to be able to see the bad things almost as well as my Indonesian friends. However, unlike some I don't simply resort to throw away lines and (in Verne's case) pure delusionalism when thinking about the solutions. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| reason #535634 why Indonesia is a basket-case country. |
Basketcase is a little harsh. From near collapse in the wake of the IMF crisis to throwing off its 30 year + dictator to strengthening democracy and ending a major civil war that largely echos the current situation in Papua in a matter of 8 years seems to work against your assessment. What would you do with Papua? Grant independence thus giving rise to another near-failed state in the Western Pacific? Rescind all mining leases, bring the native Papuans into the loop and thus piss off a bunch of major western mining companies? Allow the rebellion in West Papua to continue, thus depriving a developing nation of a large amount of its revenue? I'm interested to know your ideas rather than hearing a piece of irrelevant punditry. |
It simply says Australia gave temporary asylum to 42 Paupan boatpeople.
Political asylum happens all the time all over the world.. 1000s and 1000s are in western detention centers or walking around with legal status arguing their cases for permanant asylum as we speak.. and I don't think the US or Australia or anywhere else should apologize to another country because those particular asylum seekers happened to land on their soils as they go through the proper channels with how to deal with them.
Could you imagine Castro (in Cuba) or the previous Aristaid (Haiti's ex-prez) or the countless muslim-world and female-mutilation north african ayslum cases.. and making a stink about the US or any western country to have to apologize publicly for them landing in boats/planes seeking political asylum?
If Australia goes through the procedures and decides its better for them to face certain death in Indonesia.. so be it.. but to apologize for it just because the asylum seekers landed on Australian soils?!?
Sorry, doesn't fly in my book. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| I think you are missing the point. You called Indonesia a basket case, condemning the whole country. I wanted to know what you would do to correct this situation. You haven't provided much justification so far. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| I think you are missing the point. You called Indonesia a basket case, condemning the whole country. I wanted to know what you would do to correct this situation. You haven't provided much justification so far. |
I thought I already answered that. Refer to my previous post. Ayslum seekers go through their proper political asylum channels.
What other kind of 'situation' are you referring to? |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I think this issue is interesting because it seems to highlight how volatile regional/ethnic politics seems to be in Indonesia. I remember 20 years or so ago when a group of Moluccan separatists took hostages in the Netherlands, and it's surprising how much of a reaction the asylum issue has generated in the Indonesian government. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| I think this issue is interesting because it seems to highlight how volatile regional/ethnic politics seems to be in Indonesia. I remember 20 years or so ago when a group of Moluccan separatists took hostages in the Netherlands, and it's surprising how much of a reaction the asylum issue has generated in the Indonesian government. |
Yeah, would appear to be a hangover from the Darul Islam revolts that plauged the country in the wake of independence. Amazing how the country stayed together in light of rebellions in Aceh, Maluku and Sulawesi. If you want more background on ethnic conflict in Indo, May I suggest the International Crisis Groups website crisisgroup.org . Currently weighing through a stack for a paper on Jemaah Islamiyaah who have tentative links to the Poso crisis.
Not really surprised how much the refugee issue has arroused nationalist sentiment in Jakarta, given what Timor did to the national psyche. I've heard all kinds of rediculous rumours from friends and family who buy into the urban legend that Australia plans to annex Papua. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Granted that the annexation of the province after the Dutch withdrawal was nothing more than a nationalist powerplay by Suharto, wanting to save some face for the nation in the wake of the debarcle in Borneo/Malaya. That being said, there is no state, to my knowledge who challenged the annexation, then or now. Sure it may not be morally right, but there are numerous examples of de jure sovereignty in practice around the world.
Your contention that Papua would not become a failed state is moot. Timor is the example I would look to. It sits on a considerable resource reserve (offshore natural gas) but still relies on heavy injection of foreign funds and technical support to survive day to day. Papua is massive by comparison, lacks all but basic infrastructure and is racked by divisions. Getting lowlanders and highlanders to agree on just about anything is a problem in itself. I'm sure you could make it work fine though, Verne, after all, you are the king of the easy answer.
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Your argument could be stated to rely on the principle that it is currently part of Indonesia and due to economic reasons should likely stay that way. Maybe Palestine should accept that reasoning as well, but it doesn't.
Papua was never truly given the choice of indepence, Australia didn't need the hassle at the time, the UN was coerced to support Indonesian rule and all the actions, events since then hasn't changed that.
Should New Guinea (Irian Jaya) have the right to seek independence, of course they should. Would it succeed, that no one knows, but at least give the people a choice. I am bias, I must admit and would support a nation that would work in close cooperation with its neighbors.
I am a supporter of Indepence in Irian Jaya, if the actions such as burning down villages simply for flying a flag of independence had been carried out in other states, then it would be an issue. We don't know what will happen, yes the other states are struggling in the region, but does that mean they should never have a chance to try.
If Palestine with less natural wealth, land, etc can be argued to have a chance, shouldn't others have the same rights to a chance or is violence the only measure we count?
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| Papua is massive by comparison, lacks all but basic infrastructure and is racked by divisions. |
Then who is to blame? How long has Indonesia been in control and if they still lack the basic infrastructure, then we know who's shoulders that rests on, don't we? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| given what Timor did to the national psyche. |
By this do you mean that there was an outpouring of remorse and disgust at the slaughter of Catholics by the Indonesian army, or the damage done to national pride. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| given what Timor did to the national psyche. |
By this do you mean that there was an outpouring of remorse and disgust at the slaughter of Catholics by the Indonesian army, or the damage done to national pride. |
I'm talking about the latter, obviously. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
Granted that the annexation of the province after the Dutch withdrawal was nothing more than a nationalist powerplay by Suharto, wanting to save some face for the nation in the wake of the debarcle in Borneo/Malaya. That being said, there is no state, to my knowledge who challenged the annexation, then or now. Sure it may not be morally right, but there are numerous examples of de jure sovereignty in practice around the world.
Your contention that Papua would not become a failed state is moot. Timor is the example I would look to. It sits on a considerable resource reserve (offshore natural gas) but still relies on heavy injection of foreign funds and technical support to survive day to day. Papua is massive by comparison, lacks all but basic infrastructure and is racked by divisions. Getting lowlanders and highlanders to agree on just about anything is a problem in itself. I'm sure you could make it work fine though, Verne, after all, you are the king of the easy answer.
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Your argument could be stated to rely on the principle that it is currently part of Indonesia and due to economic reasons should likely stay that way. Maybe Palestine should accept that reasoning as well, but it doesn't.
Papua was never truly given the choice of indepence, Australia didn't need the hassle at the time, the UN was coerced to support Indonesian rule and all the actions, events since then hasn't changed that.
Should New Guinea (Irian Jaya) have the right to seek independence, of course they should. Would it succeed, that no one knows, but at least give the people a choice. I am bias, I must admit and would support a nation that would work in close cooperation with its neighbors.
I am a supporter of Indepence in Irian Jaya, if the actions such as burning down villages simply for flying a flag of independence had been carried out in other states, then it would be an issue. We don't know what will happen, yes the other states are struggling in the region, but does that mean they should never have a chance to try.
If Palestine with less natural wealth, land, etc can be argued to have a chance, shouldn't others have the same rights to a chance or is violence the only measure we count?
| Quote: |
| Papua is massive by comparison, lacks all but basic infrastructure and is racked by divisions. |
Then who is to blame? How long has Indonesia been in control and if they still lack the basic infrastructure, then we know who's shoulders that rests on, don't we? |
Your assessment of the basis of my argument is correct, in part, inasmuch that de jure sovereignty over Papua Barat gives Indonesia a rightful claim to the provence. I also made the argument in terms of regional stability. I appreciate your well thought out points and especially applaud your mentioning the fact you support Independence for the provence, however, I still oppose such a development mainly on the grounds of viability and regional stability, as stated earlier. That was the second part of my argument. As for the lack of infrastructure, geography and population or lack thereof play a large part. Jungle, mangrove coastal areas and a mountainous interior with a tiny population spread over a large area are significant barriers to development of Papua. That aside, I'm enjoying this dialog, please keep posting as its nice to debate someone with a knowledge of the issue. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| de jure sovereignty over Papua Barat gives Indonesia a rightful claim to the provence. |
You could say the same for Israel and the 'occupied territories'. |
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