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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: Bishops seek role in gay marriage debate |
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Bishops seek role in gay marriage debate
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| "As leaders, we are guardians of long traditions of wisdom," Weisgerber said. |
All I have to say is ... |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Oh, so NOW you want to talk about that part...  |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| Oh, so NOW you want to talk about that part... |
How in the hell did you remember that? And yes, now I do, because they plan on taking an even more influential role in politics, something I am dead set against. Plus, I absolutely had to post that quote (in my OP). I loved it  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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The Canadian government's line of thinking goes:
1) We had legislation that limited marriage to a woman and man but the supreme court struck it down
2) We could pass a new law, but the court will strike that law down again.
3) Since we can't arrest the supreme court in a democracy, we have to pass a law that they won't strike down.
4) In the absence of a law about marriage, our current human rights laws might open up churches to discrimination lawsuits if they refuse to marry two chicks.
5) We should pass laws that protect churches from liability, allowing them to marry only the people they want to marry without fear of lawsuits.
And the church has a problem with this... What they seem to be asking for is a) we re-write the constitution b) we stack the court with judges who are friendly to a single issue.
I don't get it. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Easy answer, marriage is a civil contract between two consenting adults. Take the church out of the equation, although if both adults consent, they can have their priest/rabbi/mullah/shaman/witchdoctor bless the union. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| Easy answer, marriage is a civil contract between two consenting adults. Take the church out of the equation, although if both adults consent, they can have their priest/rabbi/mullah/shaman/witchdoctor bless the union. |
IIRC in New Zealand we have traditional marriage and we have a civil contract that anyone can enter into. Apart from a rush of gay ceremonies around the time it was introduced, very few people take the civil union option. At least, I think that's the situation. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Exactly. I don't see why gay couples need to involve the various factions of "invisible friends in the sky club" to get married. If city hall and Elvis impersonaters can perform marriage rites, why would a couple spend their happy day in an institution that hates them??
But keeping the side issue aside for the moment, just what is it about the Canadian catholic church that they suddenly need to step into de-facto public office? The biggest christian church in the country is issuing 'with us or against us' statements like this;
| Quote: |
| Weisgerber said the expectation that members of the church embrace its teachings on same-sex marriage will also apply to Catholic politicians, saying they must consider the values of their church when developing public policy. |
Make me think having a religious background will be a big minus when running for public office. It's nothing more than a backdoor to avoid the seperation of church and state. Waving a bible at politicians may do something in America, I'd hope Canada aren't going to follow suit on this one. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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I love this quote:
| The Toronto Star wrote: |
Weisgerber said the expectation that members of the church embrace its teachings on same-sex marriage will also apply to Catholic politicians, saying they must consider the values of their church when developing public policy.
"It would be difficult to be a member of the Liberal Party if you don't hold liberal views," he said. |
No, Weisgerber, they consider the values of their constituents, so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others (or at least that's my understanding of a representative democracy). It would be difficult to be a member of the liberal party if you didn't hold liberal views, but last I checked there was no Catholic party in Canada.
And this one:
| The Toronto Star wrote: |
Weisgerber, who returned Saturday from his papal meeting, agreed with the pope's concerns about Canada, saying the morals religion once gave society have not been replaced with another set of values as church membership has waned.
"People don't really have a sense of personal sin or reflection," he said. "We are becoming a more selfish and hedonistic society." |
Except that they have been replaced by values. One that are not attempting to restrict rights to a certain select group of people that some crazy guy who thinks he's been chosen by god for something feels he alone should choose.
The secular world doesn't have a sense of sin, because sin is a religious concept. Right and wrong, however are not exclusive to religion. Exclusionary religious values are being replaced, he just won't recognize that because they don't follow his values.
| gang ah jee wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| Easy answer, marriage is a civil contract between two consenting adults. Take the church out of the equation, although if both adults consent, they can have their priest/rabbi/mullah/shaman/witchdoctor bless the union. |
IIRC in New Zealand we have traditional marriage and we have a civil contract that anyone can enter into. Apart from a rush of gay ceremonies around the time it was introduced, very few people take the civil union option. At least, I think that's the situation. |
In Argentina there are two systems, the state system is independent, but the religious one is dependent on the state system. A couple must first marry in civil court, and only then they are free to be married or not by whatever religious organization they see fit. I'm not quite sure how a country that dictated that the president had to be Catholic, until 1994, has this type of insight and Canada doesn't get it yet. Rather than creating a separate system for the non-religious, why not create an equal marriage system for all with the option to have it sanctioned by any god you please afterwards.
I don't think any religious figure should be forced to marry people against their wishes, but I also don't think they should be performing a role the state should be performing. In the case of state officials performing marriage, any public official should be required to perform their duties as a public servant even if they disagree morally, or at least provide an alternative that in no way inconveniences the requester of the service. They are aware of their duties when they sign on, which are represent the laws of state. If they disagree with the state, then they can fight the state, but the cannot (or I guess should not) fight the individuals requesting rights that have been granted by the state. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I see the church's refusal to marry gays as them endorsing sex out of wedlock.  |
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