Korean Job Discussion Forums

[SPINOZA]

Hear me out on this one, folks. I'm not asking what this sound is in Korean. I think i've pretty much nailed it. If there's just one, like in ���, it's more of an 'r' (albeit an 'r' made with the tip of the tongue and roof of the mouth, rather than an English 'r' which is made with the lips and top front teeth. Actually, I've never heard the English 'r' sound in any other language - even in German it's a 'motorbike' 'r' sound like in Spanish or Russian). But, put 2 ��s together and you've got an 'l' sound....���� ����, �����.

I don't think the English 'r' sound exists in Korean, but nevertheless Koreans can say it. Often they say it when they shouldn't - when a word begins with 'l' (rice = lice, Latin = Rattin). It drives me nuts. Koreans CAN make both sounds, but they often get L and R the wrong way round! WHY?? Recently a co-teacher said 'leructantry' (reluctantly). Of course I didn't have a clue what she was saying despite asking 3 times, and I've also heard liar = riar, liver = river.

I know it's not just my imagination. Why the HELL can't they make the L and R sounds when they're supposed to?

[billybrobby]

somewhere, some time ago, somebody foisted on us the idea that �� bears some relationship to R. which it does not, or at least no more than D has a relationship to �� (try it. say ��� and then say saddam. then try saram. which is closer? either one?)

There's just nothing like R in Korean. or, like you said, most languages that i know of. the Spanish R really has little to do with the English R either. But all through high school Korean teachers have been enforcing this R and �� connection and it's not helping anybody.

it is interesting how not understanding the sound of something makes it so much harder to spell. i often get emails talking about rearry bad riars and stuff like that.

[Privateer]

It's not just Koreans who can't pronounce 'r'. I can't either.

According to the books, the position of the tongue when pronouncing 'r' is almost the same as with 'l', just a little bit lower down, closer to the front teeth.

Only...when I say 'r' I don't use the tongue at all. I find I push the lower lips and jaw forward slightly, almost like puckering the lips. I can do the 'r' sound as they describe it in the books, but when speaking naturally it's all in the lips and jaw.

Is this a British thing? We skip final 'r' after all. How does everyone else say 'r'?

[seoulsucker]

Ever seen a professional baseball player try to swing a golf club?

I pose this question to my adult students whenever they express frustration with their pronunciation.

[Free World]

It's a well documented problem. Even dear leader up north struggles with the L and R distinction.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YDuyJrJCKqw
It sounds so sirry... but not rearry.

I make my r sound the same way as Privateer and I'm not British.

[SPINOZA]

Yeah, I think we all make the r-sound with the top front teeth and the bottom lip (behind and below). As I said - and as Billy said too - English could possibly be unique in having this sound. I doubt it, mind you. I suspect Dutch, Flemish or Danish have it - languages very close to English in pronunciation. German doesn't. All the languages I've ever come across have the 'motorbike' RRrrrrrr sound. That sound DOES have some closeness with 'l' but the English 'r' has no resemblance whatsoever to 'l'. Korean's �� is not as pronounced as the vibrating-r-thing but isn't far away. It's softer but still said with the roof of the mouth + tongue.

[RACETRAITOR]

Ever notice how when foreigners pronounce "��," they say it either like a soft "b" or a really hard "p?" Why can they never get it right?

[flotsam]

From what I have seen, �� can sound like l,r or even n depending on the speaker and the placement in the word. A lot of Koreans pronounce ��� in a way that sounds a lot more like "na-myeon" than "ra-myeon". And when I have pronounced it that way by starting with my tongue pressed against the hard palate just behind my upper row of teeth, I get more compliments on how my Korean sounds so fluent. I find this to be like the whole ��/���� theory of pronunciation: you know some people say that you should just pronounce them as "Chey" and "Dan-jang" as they sound closer to those, but if you listen to Korean speakers who enunciate well, they do pronounce the complex vowel combination clearly, just subtly. Or subtly to our ears at least.

The ���� thing is just that the consonant is used in both syllables though isn't it?

But yeah, I guess the bottom line is that it's not an l or an r or an n. It's a ��.

[shortskirt_longjacket]

Most of the time when "r" is used in the middle of a word, like with "nurse" or "shirt" or "fork", it's actually considered to be a special vowel sound, not a consonant.

Here's a link to the International Phonetic Alphabet and some examples of "er", "ar", "or" as a vowel sound (not a vowel/consanant combo):

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/english.htm

When it's at the beginning of the word, it's definitely a consonant, though. My students have trouble with "r" and "l" sometimes...I just make them overpronounce their "l" sounds by making sure they stick their tongue out when they say "l" words. That way they can feel the difference when they speak (even if they can't hear the difference).

[Ya-ta Boy]

[Don Gately]

[JongnoGuru]