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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Benbby
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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 Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: NK vs SK vs Japan issues |
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Lately some of you may have have heard when the subject of Japan comes up in South Korea, Japan is bad. The kids in my classes say this all the time. Now I have a comeback.
Pre 1945 Japan was as bad as the Nazis in Germany, killing many of Asians. Since 1945 Japan has been a model international citizen, advocating democracy, human rights, and peace. Has North Korea been advocating this? Of course not.
SK is a new democracy, until 1988, Koreans could not even easily leave the country. SK does not realize by dissing Japan they diss a country the world has taken a liking to. We like many Japanese things. Plus Japan is a democracy. SK acts like a province of China by attacking Japan all the time. China, another communist dictatorship where people are not free-but they are much better than NK. |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Discussing current events with Koreans turns my hair gray. It usually ends with the "Korean blink" and my face red.
My "favorite" is talking about Sea of Japan vs. East Sea. As soon as you bring up "Well, it's West of Japan" the conversation ends. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: Re: NK vs SK vs Japan issues |
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| Benbby wrote: |
Lately some of you may have have heard when the subject of Japan comes up in South Korea, Japan is bad. The kids in my classes say this all the time. Now I have a comeback.
Pre 1945 Japan was as bad as the Nazis in Germany, killing many of Asians. Since 1945 Japan has been a model international citizen, advocating democracy, human rights, and peace. Has North Korea been advocating this? Of course not.
SK is a new democracy, until 1988, Koreans could not even easily leave the country. SK does not realize by dissing Japan they diss a country the world has taken a liking to. We like many Japanese things. Plus Japan is a democracy. SK acts like a province of China by attacking Japan all the time. China, another communist dictatorship where people are not free-but they are much better than NK. |
Blood is thicker than water. Yes, there are fewer rational basis for attacking Japan these days, especially in light of how the DPRK acts, but then again, most nationalists aren't very rational. |
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markhan
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Re: NK vs SK vs Japan issues |
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You know, even as a Korean-American, I do not like it when Koreans are so overt in bashing Japan. I have advocated friendship between Korean and Japanese for few years now (mainly because they need each other. ie. similar language & culture and the fact China and India are too big)
As such, I have been telling Koreans that Japanese arent too bad, and that Korean govt used anti-Japanease propanganda to instill the sense of rivalry, and to drive the economy, etc. However, anytime i say something of forgivness and "lets just move on." Koreans reply back, "Yes, we would love to forgive and just move on too." "But, every time they apology and seem truly remorseful, next year they go back to Yasukuni Shrine despite heavy protests from Asian countries." This pattern has repeated so often we cant trust Japanese anymore."
Sadly, I cannot fault Koreans on that.
| Benbby wrote: |
Lately some of you may have have heard when the subject of Japan comes up in South Korea, Japan is bad. The kids in my classes say this all the time. Now I have a comeback.
Pre 1945 Japan was as bad as the Nazis in Germany, killing many of Asians. Since 1945 Japan has been a model international citizen, advocating democracy, human rights, and peace. Has North Korea been advocating this? Of course not.
SK is a new democracy, until 1988, Koreans could not even easily leave the country. SK does not realize by dissing Japan they diss a country the world has taken a liking to. We like many Japanese things. Plus Japan is a democracy. SK acts like a province of China by attacking Japan all the time. China, another communist dictatorship where people are not free-but they are much better than NK. |
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markhan
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and I forgot.
How is North Korea relevant to Japan?
Most Koreans absolutely hate Kim Jong-Il regime but they tolerate him for fear of war. North Korean is the sole reason why every Korean male has to serve dreadful military service.
So much for your lame comeback... |
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uberscheisse
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| markhan wrote: |
Oh, and I forgot.
How is North Korea relevant to Japan?
Most Koreans absolutely hate Kim Jong-Il regime but they tolerate him for fear of war. North Korean is the sole reason why every Korean male has to serve dreadful military service.
So much for your lame comeback... |
how about the "we'll turn japan into a sea of fire" comments? i'd say NK is very relevant to japan.
plus... NK folks get just as poopy-drawered about ddongdo as SK folks too, don't they? |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Mostly, at least for adults, it's about what the Japanese administration did, does and will do. Koreans tend to diss their own government a lot as well.
| Benbby wrote: |
| SK does not realize by dissing Japan they diss a country the world has taken a liking to. We like many Japanese things. |
Everyone loves Raymond and how dare you are dissing Raymond..!?
Yeah, we know he's a good guy now. But the thing is that he's always friendly with everyone else but me. Also, I've come across lots of western media criticizing Japan's diplomatic relations with her neighbours in the similar way as Korea criticizes. It's not like only Korea or China in the whole world is criticizing something about Japan.
As to the attitude towards NK, it's even more tricky. Korea has tried diferent policies for decades. We all know they suck, but really what can you do to a crazy guy who can't take criticisms. Just be tough and provoke him? Also, for SK, NK is not considered a completely foreign enemy state. |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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As such, I have been telling Koreans that Japanese arent too bad, and that Korean govt used anti-Japanease propanganda to instill the sense of rivalry, and to drive the economy, etc. However, anytime i say something of forgivness and "lets just move on." Koreans reply back, "Yes, we would love to forgive and just move on too." "But, every time they apology and seem truly remorseful, next year they go back to Yasukuni Shrine despite heavy protests from Asian countries." This pattern has repeated so often we cant trust Japanese anymore."
Sadly, I cannot fault Koreans on that. |
It's kind of interesting reading up on the Yasukuni shrine and it's exact purpose. 12 class A convicted War criminals out of 2.5 million Japanese. They aren't worshipped there as most people seem to be assuming.. A general ignorance of the Shinto religion doesn't help either.
It seems to be an excuse to keep up the hatred of the Japanese for Koreans and Chinese. An external "enemy" keeps Korean eyes away from the disasterous job that the current Korean administration has done and President Noh exploits it every chance he gets.
Wikipedia has a lot of information on the subject which seems fairly objective. Also a fair amount of links too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine |
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noguri
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Location: korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
It's kind of interesting reading up on the Yasukuni shrine and it's exact purpose. 12 class A convicted War criminals out of 2.5 million Japanese. They aren't worshipped there as most people seem to be assuming.. A general ignorance of the Shinto religion doesn't help either....
Wikipedia has a lot of information on the subject which seems fairly objective. Also a fair amount of links too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine |
Hmm, I read one of the articles linked to the Wikipedia entry you cite, and it describes the rites conducted at the shrine as propitiating the spirits of the departed ancestors by leaving offerings. I believe this is very similar to what Koreans call [in English] "ancestor worship." Perhaps Koreans understand more of what is going on in Shinto than you give them credit for.
Further, I read the Wikipedia entry. It states:
A pamphlet published by the shrine says: "War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with our Asian neighbors." It also says that Japanese POWs executed for war crimes were "cruelly and unjustly tried" by a "sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces." Their position is based on the WWII-era argument from the Japanese government that the country had never signed the Geneva Convention, and was not a signatory of any enforcable international war crimes agreement. Therefore, in their opinion, the convictions were labels placed upon them by an organization to which they did not belong. The shrine's English-language website defends Japanese activities prior to and during World War II, by stating: "War is truly sorrowful. Yet to maintain the independence and peace of the nation and for the prosperity of all of Asia, Japan was forced into conflict." [1]
Hmm, this makes me think. Even if only 12 Nazis were interred at a shrine, I would be offended if Germany's head of state visited there to do honors to the departed. I would also be offended if Germany had not apologized to the Jews. Germany also paid large sums of money in reparations to Israel. Japan has never apologized for what it did to Korea or China, and no reparations have been paid. Yasukuni perpetuates the idea that no wrong was committed by Japan. |
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ajgeddes
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Location: Yongsan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| noguri wrote: |
| Guri Guy wrote: |
It's kind of interesting reading up on the Yasukuni shrine and it's exact purpose. 12 class A convicted War criminals out of 2.5 million Japanese. They aren't worshipped there as most people seem to be assuming.. A general ignorance of the Shinto religion doesn't help either....
Wikipedia has a lot of information on the subject which seems fairly objective. Also a fair amount of links too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine |
Hmm, I read one of the articles linked to the Wikipedia entry you cite, and it describes the rites conducted at the shrine as propitiating the spirits of the departed ancestors by leaving offerings. I believe this is very similar to what Koreans call [in English] "ancestor worship." Perhaps Koreans understand more of what is going on in Shinto than you give them credit for.
Further, I read the Wikipedia entry. It states:
A pamphlet published by the shrine says: "War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with our Asian neighbors." It also says that Japanese POWs executed for war crimes were "cruelly and unjustly tried" by a "sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces." Their position is based on the WWII-era argument from the Japanese government that the country had never signed the Geneva Convention, and was not a signatory of any enforcable international war crimes agreement. Therefore, in their opinion, the convictions were labels placed upon them by an organization to which they did not belong. The shrine's English-language website defends Japanese activities prior to and during World War II, by stating: "War is truly sorrowful. Yet to maintain the independence and peace of the nation and for the prosperity of all of Asia, Japan was forced into conflict." [1]
Hmm, this makes me think. Even if only 12 Nazis were interred at a shrine, I would be offended if Germany's head of state visited there to do honors to the departed. I would also be offended if Germany had not apologized to the Jews. Germany also paid large sums of money in reparations to Israel. Japan has never apologized for what it did to Korea or China, and no reparations have been paid. Yasukuni perpetuates the idea that no wrong was committed by Japan. |
I am 99.9% sure you are wrong here. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: NK vs SK vs Japan issues |
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| Benbby wrote: |
| Lately some of you may have have heard when the subject of Japan comes up in South Korea, Japan is bad. The kids in my classes say this all the time. Now I have a comeback. |
Why on Earth are you arguing with your students about this? I doubt you were hired to end anti-Japanese prejudice.
There are a lot of hurt feelings over the Japanese occupation that have lasted for generations, you would probably be better off avoiding the subject in the classroom.
Furthermore, when it comes to politics (or just about anything else) it's probably better for you to keep your own opinions out of it unless your students actually ask you what you think. Your job is to help your students communicate in English, not preach to them.
Your ideas have merit, but you'd probably be better off discussing them with your Korean friends and acquaintances, not your students. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ajgeddes wrote: |
| Japan has never apologized for what it did to Korea or China, and no reparations have been paid. Yasukuni perpetuates the idea that no wrong was committed by Japan. |
I am 99.9% sure you are wrong here.[/quote]
You are right, he is wrong. When Park Jung Hee normalized relations with Japan in the 1960s he accepted a one-time reparations/aid package. That money was used to build POSCO.
However, many Koreans feel that this reparations package was insufficient and did not go to the victims who deserved it. The former comfort women protest about this frequently. The Japanese government maintains that they have lived up to their obligations in terms of reparations and refuse to pay anything further. |
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Benbby
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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I don't argue with students, at first I was taken back with all the Japanese negativity, and lately I avoid the topic. Being a teacher you can control the discussion in a classroom.
Japanese politicians make a serious mistake by visiting the war shrine with Class A war criminals, no doubt there. Japan is sometimes shortsighted.
I saw on TV the SK minister of Unification talk about tensions on the "Korean peninsula." I thought, Earth to minister, it is NK that is causing all the tension, they fired the rockets and may have a nuclear test. SK is just fine, no one worries about South Korea.
As we know SK is a very bureaucratic place, a country that loves process, but now its time for SK to produce some results I think on NK. The head in the sand "Sunshine policy" of the last decade leaves little room for intelligent discussion or maneuver in SK over NK. The "brothers" up north are fine, it is the NK gov't that is dangerous. |
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uberscheisse
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| ajgeddes wrote: |
| Japan has never apologized for what it did to Korea or China, and no reparations have been paid. Yasukuni perpetuates the idea that no wrong was committed by Japan. |
I am 99.9% sure you are wrong here. |
You are right, he is wrong. When Park Jung Hee normalized relations with Japan in the 1960s he accepted a one-time reparations/aid package. That money was used to build POSCO.
However, many Koreans feel that this reparations package was insufficient and did not go to the victims who deserved it. The former comfort women protest about this frequently. The Japanese government maintains that they have lived up to their obligations in terms of reparations and refuse to pay anything further.[/quote]
so by saying this, are you suggesting that the korean gov't is to blame for much of the I HATE JAPAN hooey you hear? in that the distribution of the reparations most likely went to high people in the kim and park clans rather than being more evenly distributed against legit victims?
this is something i'm curious about so weblinks, reading list, etc. are appreciated for this specific topic. |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Telling Koreans to just get over and be nice and understand what Japan says about their way and spirit regarding the Yasukuni shrine seems just so uncalled for to me.
| Guri Guy wrote: |
| It seems to be an excuse to keep up the hatred of the Japanese for Koreans and Chinese. An external "enemy" keeps Korean eyes away from the disasterous job that the current Korean administration has done and President Noh exploits it every chance he gets. |
Yeah, and also it's not like Tokyo doesn't have their own political agenda when the prime minister keeps visiting the shirine, is it... |
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