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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: How much mathematics do these poor kids need? |
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I was wondering why my school has so many math teachers and, talking with one of my best grade one (high school) kids the other day, found out that they usually get two math lessons a day. On top of that math is by far the most common hogwan subject for my students (even more than English, sadly), as I guess their parents are really afraid of them falling behind. The girl I was talking to goes to a math hogwan in our town for an hour, four times a week, and four hours on Saturday afternoon / evening to another math hogwan two bus rides away in central Daegu. So in total she's getting about 18 hours of math instruction a week plus who knows how much homework. On top of that during winter break her parents sent her off to a one-month boot-camp style boarding hogwan where math was the foremost subject, and from what she was telling me about what goes on there it sounds like nothing short of organised child abuse (and she'll probably be going back this summer). She wants to be an elementary school teacher. I'm sure her knowledge of math is already good enough to teach up to grade 6. So what is the purpose of having to devote more of her life to her least favourite subject than some teens back home do to their entire education? To get a good CSAT score so she can get into a good university of education. That's it.
I went through the British Columbia school system and cheated my way through grade 10 math, took dummy math 11, and then that was it for me. When I sat my GRE years later, with a few weeks of cramming for simple calculations and geometry, I finished in the 67th percentile in the math component, despite the fact that half the people sitting that examination were science or engineering graduates - which means I beat a lot of them despite never, ever trying at math in my teen years.
I just can't imagine how much better Korean high schools would be for both students and teachers if the students could concentrate on four or five subjects they liked and were interested in, instead of having to cover everything from 7.30am until up to 11.30pm. I'm sure the result would be better uni students, too. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: How much mathematics do these poor kids need? |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I was wondering why my school has so many math teachers and, talking with one of my best grade one (high school) kids the other day, found out that they usually get two math lessons a day. On top of that math is by far the most common hogwan subject for my students (even more than English, sadly), as I guess their parents are really afraid of them falling behind. The girl I was talking to goes to a math hogwan in our town for an hour, four times a week, and four hours on Saturday afternoon / evening to another math hogwan two bus rides away in central Daegu. So in total she's getting about 18 hours of math instruction a week plus who knows how much homework. On top of that during winter break her parents sent her off to a one-month boot-camp style boarding hogwan where math was the foremost subject, and from what she was telling me about what goes on there it sounds like nothing short of organised child abuse (and she'll probably be going back this summer). She wants to be an elementary school teacher. I'm sure her knowledge of math is already good enough to teach up to grade 6. So what is the purpose of having to devote more of her life to her least favourite subject than some teens back home do to their entire education? To get a good CSAT score so she can get into a good university of education. That's it.
I went through the British Columbia school system and cheated my way through grade 10 math, took dummy math 11, and then that was it for me. When I sat my GRE years later, with a few weeks of cramming for simple calculations and geometry, I finished in the 67th percentile in the math component, despite the fact that half the people sitting that examination were science or engineering graduates - which means I beat a lot of them despite never, ever trying at math in my teen years.
I just can't imagine how much better Korean high schools would be for both students and teachers if the students could concentrate on four or five subjects they liked and were interested in, instead of having to cover everything from 7.30am until up to 11.30pm. I'm sure the result would be better uni students, too. |
I see what you are trying to say, but you are completely wrong in your conclusion. We should most definitely keep requisites in high school. Look at the Liberal arts thread going right now. A lot of people wishing they had made better choices in university. Letting high school kids pick everything they want to study is absolutely fricken crazy, and I am guessing I just misunderstood you. There should be electives though, where they can study some of the things they want.
Also, I agree there is way too much math studying going on with your students (and I am assuming many more). That is crazy.
But math is too important not to make high school kids (and even uni students) take it. There is no need to focus in it if you aren't going to use it, but I have honestly found a lot of people nowadays (my generation and lower) that can't even do basic percentages. What's 15% of this for the tip? I have seen people take things to the cash to see how much it is if it is 30% off.
Lastly, for your test. Are you really it was 50% engineers and computer science students? I am guessing it is a guess. Also, some people can be perfect at math, yet fail a test. Many people are just bad at tests or exams, or have a bad day (sick, tired, etc) and don't do well. Also, you might have a natural talent for it. Some of the programmers might be the opposite, damn good at programming but crappy at math. Look how many arts majors are on this board can't spell worth crap. The fact that engineers, etc aren't good at math is no different. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess some cultures still value proper education in whats really important instead of the garbage western schools feed their students, which is pitiful and a joke. Good for the Koreans. They will be able to do more than add and count when they grow up, something one cant say for many westerners. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: How much mathematics do these poor kids need? |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Also, I agree there is way too much math studying going on with your students (and I am assuming many more). That is crazy.
But math is too important not to make high school kids (and even uni students) take it. There is no need to focus in it if you aren't going to use it, but I have honestly found a lot of people nowadays (my generation and lower) that can't even do basic percentages. What's 15% of this for the tip? I have seen people take things to the cash to see how much it is if it is 30% off.
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If they can't do that after taking grade 8 / 2nd form math they should just get 4 more years of remedial math, not start on algebra.
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Lastly, for your test. Are you really it was 50% engineers and computer science students? I am guessing it is a guess. Also, some people can be perfect at math, yet fail a test. Many people are just bad at tests or exams, or have a bad day (sick, tired, etc) and don't do well. Also, you might have a natural talent for it. Some of the programmers might be the opposite, damn good at programming but crappy at math. Look how many arts majors are on this board can't spell worth crap. The fact that engineers, etc aren't good at math is no different. |
Well, about half of American grad students are science or engineering majors, so I'm guessing that's about what percentage take the test. As for the spelling, that's something I've always been sloppy with and 8+ years of liberal arts study at three different unis did nothing to change it. I doubt someone who's naturally sloppy at calculations is going to benefit from yet more study. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| I guess some cultures still value proper education in whats really important instead of the garbage western schools feed their students, which is pitiful and a joke. Good for the Koreans. They will be able to do more than add and count when they grow up, something one cant say for many westerners. |
Look at how many hours British A-level students spend at lessons and how many subjects they cover. Then think of how many renowned scholars have come from England and compare that to how many have come from Korea, nations with similar populations. While I know that some British secondary schools are atrocious places, the system is obviously doing something right. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| I guess some cultures still value proper education in whats really important instead of the garbage western schools feed their students, which is pitiful and a joke. Good for the Koreans. They will be able to do more than add and count when they grow up, something one cant say for many westerners. |
Look at how many hours British A-level students spend at lessons and how many subjects they cover. Then think of how many renowned scholars have come from England and compare that to how many have come from Korea, nations with similar populations. While I know that some British secondary schools are atrocious places, the system is obviously doing something right. |
Dude, Korea was a 3rd world nation 40 years ago. ever read Korean history? Hermit Kingdom, Japanese occupation, Korean war. They only just became a relatively developed country a couple of decades ago. What do you want? Do you mean that just because England has a great history of scholars that it means their system today is better? Um, think a bit. As it stands, Korean kids are far superior to western kids in maths and sciences. Thats why at the largest universities, mathes and sciences are dominated by immigrant kids fro countries like Korea. Or China. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| I guess some cultures still value proper education in whats really important instead of the garbage western schools feed their students, which is pitiful and a joke. Good for the Koreans. They will be able to do more than add and count when they grow up, something one cant say for many westerners. |
Look at how many hours British A-level students spend at lessons and how many subjects they cover. Then think of how many renowned scholars have come from England and compare that to how many have come from Korea, nations with similar populations. While I know that some British secondary schools are atrocious places, the system is obviously doing something right. |
Dude, Korea was a 3rd world nation 40 years ago. ever read Korean history? Hermit Kingdom, Japanese occupation, Korean war. They only just became a relatively developed country a couple of decades ago. What do you want? Do you mean that just because England has a great history of scholars that it means their system today is better? Um, think a bit. As it stands, Korean kids are far superior to western kids in maths and sciences. Thats why at the largest universities, mathes and sciences are dominated by immigrant kids fro countries like Korea. Or China. |
There's no doubt that they're on average much better at math and science, but only the top math and science students are going to grow up to be mathematicians and scientists. Ones like the student I mentioned would be better off focusing on things she likes and is good at, like English. Koreans are woefully behind in the liberal arts, and sometimes those same geniuses who win scholarships to western universities (and why do the very best always want to study abroad?) find themselves in the shit when they have to take a few arts electives or prepare an English presentation. Most Korean HS graduates have no idea how to write a proper essay in Korean, much less English. Wouldn't it be better for those who have a higher aptitude in social sciences and humanities to spend a little less time at math and get more helpful and useful education in such areas? Then there are the social effects of micromanaging kids' lives to cram in as large a quantity of education as possible - something I could rant about forever. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
There's no doubt that they're on average much better at math and science, but only the top math and science students are going to grow up to be mathematicians and scientists. Ones like the student I mentioned would be better off focusing on things she likes and is good at, like English. Koreans are woefully behind in the liberal arts, and sometimes those same geniuses who win scholarships to western universities (and why do the very best always want to study abroad?) find themselves in the *beep* when they have to take a few arts electives or prepare an English presentation. Most Korean HS graduates have no idea how to write a proper essay in Korean, much less English. Wouldn't it be better for those who have a higher aptitude in social sciences and humanities to spend a little less time at math and get more helpful and useful education in such areas? Then there are the social effects of micromanaging kids' lives to cram in as large a quantity of education as possible - something I could rant about forever. |
The same could be said for our society and math (except our students don' t study arts like they do math here, luckily). What we need to do is find a balance. Children must learn algebra and trigonometry for the exact same reason someone who is going to go into computer science must study classic literature, shakespear, poems, etc. It's obvious neither will need the other, but it helps the person grow, to see there is more out there.
As silly as this may sound now, with growing lifespans, you might see grade 12 go to grade 14 (well, we might not, but our grandchildren "may"). In this day and age, letting people stay ignorant of other ideas and subjects(or some people might say focused on ones they are interested in) is just not very forward thinking. I hated tons of vegetables when I was a kid, but being forced to eat them helped keep my body healthy. Same goes for the mind. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
There's no doubt that they're on average much better at math and science, but only the top math and science students are going to grow up to be mathematicians and scientists. Ones like the student I mentioned would be better off focusing on things she likes and is good at, like English. Koreans are woefully behind in the liberal arts, and sometimes those same geniuses who win scholarships to western universities (and why do the very best always want to study abroad?) find themselves in the *beep* when they have to take a few arts electives or prepare an English presentation. Most Korean HS graduates have no idea how to write a proper essay in Korean, much less English. Wouldn't it be better for those who have a higher aptitude in social sciences and humanities to spend a little less time at math and get more helpful and useful education in such areas? Then there are the social effects of micromanaging kids' lives to cram in as large a quantity of education as possible - something I could rant about forever. |
The same could be said for our society and math (except our students don' t study arts like they do math here, luckily). What we need to do is find a balance. Children must learn algebra and trigonometry for the exact same reason someone who is going to go into computer science must study classic literature, shakespear, poems, etc. It's obvious neither will need the other, but it helps the person grow, to see there is more out there.
As silly as this may sound now, with growing lifespans, you might see grade 12 go to grade 14 (well, we might not, but our grandchildren "may"). In this day and age, letting people stay ignorant of other ideas and subjects(or some people might say focused on ones they are interested in) is just not very forward thinking. I hated tons of vegetables when I was a kid, but being forced to eat them helped keep my body healthy. Same goes for the mind. |
But my point is that math, beyond a need to perform basic calculations, is just not applicable to very much in life. Prey tell how doing university calculus would have helped me with anything. Why not do something else that broadens horizons (like study languages) that would be more applicable to my major and enhance my knowledge of the world? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
There's no doubt that they're on average much better at math and science, but only the top math and science students are going to grow up to be mathematicians and scientists. Ones like the student I mentioned would be better off focusing on things she likes and is good at, like English. Koreans are woefully behind in the liberal arts, and sometimes those same geniuses who win scholarships to western universities (and why do the very best always want to study abroad?) find themselves in the *beep* when they have to take a few arts electives or prepare an English presentation. Most Korean HS graduates have no idea how to write a proper essay in Korean, much less English. Wouldn't it be better for those who have a higher aptitude in social sciences and humanities to spend a little less time at math and get more helpful and useful education in such areas? Then there are the social effects of micromanaging kids' lives to cram in as large a quantity of education as possible - something I could rant about forever. |
The same could be said for our society and math (except our students don' t study arts like they do math here, luckily). What we need to do is find a balance. Children must learn algebra and trigonometry for the exact same reason someone who is going to go into computer science must study classic literature, shakespear, poems, etc. It's obvious neither will need the other, but it helps the person grow, to see there is more out there.
As silly as this may sound now, with growing lifespans, you might see grade 12 go to grade 14 (well, we might not, but our grandchildren "may"). In this day and age, letting people stay ignorant of other ideas and subjects(or some people might say focused on ones they are interested in) is just not very forward thinking. I hated tons of vegetables when I was a kid, but being forced to eat them helped keep my body healthy. Same goes for the mind. |
But my point is that math, beyond a need to perform basic calculations, is just not applicable to very much in life. Prey tell how doing university calculus would have helped me with anything. Why not do something else that broadens horizons (like study languages) that would be more applicable to my major and enhance my knowledge of the world? |
Please reread my last post, though I will repeat myself for your benefit. How did Shakespeare or scanning poems help me in my Computer Science degree, or anywhere in life? Or are you saying that all arts should be taken out of education for people who will be dealing only with math or science so they can focus on that. Don't bother posting unless you are going to answer this question.
Learning calculus would have trained your mind to think in a logical way, just as poems train my mind to look past the written, functional word to see more behind it. Actually, all kids should learn another language too.
You're prejudice against math is quite apparent,
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| Why not do something else that broadens horizons (like study languages) that would be more applicable to my major and enhance my knowledge of the world |
I am glad to see math doesn't broaden any horizons or enhance your knowledge of the world. 
Unfortunately, it is you people with 8+ years in "liberal arts" that are in control of the education system, though that is changing. A balance is needed between focusing on what you will study and keeping your mind open to other things, just like in ALL points of life.
Let me reiterate that point...
BALANCE = GOOD |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I just fail to see how learning calculus would broaden my horizons that much. My knowledge of math was apparently good enough for me to get a B in macroeconomics and figure out how supply and demand, elastic and inelastic goods, debt and GNP growth, etc. work. It was good enough for me to get an A in syllogistic logic. It was good enough for me to figure out what Kabbalist writers and Venician merchants were writing about. It was good enough for me to understand and compute demographic trends in early modern England. It was good enough for me to figure out what my GPA was. And I got about 1/10 the secondary school mathematics instruction that my students will get. Sorry for my prejudice against such an intriguing field of study but I fail to see what the point is of putting students who hate math and are talented in other areas through so much hell. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I just fail to see how learning calculus would broaden my horizons that much. My knowledge of math was apparently good enough for me to get a B in macroeconomics and figure out how supply and demand, elastic and inelastic goods, debt and GNP growth, etc. work. It was good enough for me to get an A in syllogistic logic. It was good enough for me to figure out what Kabbalist writers and Venician merchants were writing about. It was good enough for me to understand and compute demographic trends in early modern England. It was good enough for me to figure out what my GPA was. And I got about 1/10 the secondary school mathematics instruction that my students will get. Sorry for my prejudice against such an intriguing field of study but I fail to see what the point is of putting students who hate math and are talented in other areas through so much hell. |
First, you didn't answer my question about taking arts out of the curriculum for science and math students. Second, you continually miss my point of how a balance is good. I am going to put this bluntly. Do you think arts should be taken out of the curriculum for science and math students and do you think that people should focus only on what they need in life and not ever leave that box?
You should be forced to go beyond what is needed to continue learning. I am not saying arts students should take 4th year calc, but first year calc will make then think in ways they wouldn't have before. Same goes for me having to take arts classes in university. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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To answer your question, I think that a science or maths curriculum should include some skills-based liberal arts classes, such as English. Students of any discipline need to have basic essay-writing skills and an ability to use language accurately. Beyond this I think it should be optional, with students free to take some electives inside or outside their field of study.
I could see the point of including some mathematics in a critical thinking course that all students should take. For instance, it would be useful for students to know at least how logarithms and statistics work, even if they have neither the time nor the aptitude to develop a knowledge that would allow them to work out complex formulae. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
To answer your question, I think that a science or maths curriculum should include some skills-based liberal arts classes, such as English. Students of any discipline need to have basic essay-writing skills and an ability to use language accurately. Beyond this I think it should be optional, with students free to take some electives inside or outside their field of study.
I could see the point of including some mathematics in a critical thinking course that all students should take. For instance, it would be useful for students to know at least how logarithms and statistics work, even if they have neither the time nor the aptitude to develop a knowledge that would allow them to work out complex formulae. |
We will just have to agree to disagree. My way creates people who can think outside the box while yours creates people who would be useless when asked to think outside their little box.
To say people shouldn't study history or English literature just cause they are going into math is dangerous. Luckily, like I said, more science and math teachers have decided to move up into school boards and are creating balance.
I read about 3 months ago some artsie who wrote that (I don't remember exact numbers, but the exponents are exactly the same)...
2.2 X 10^9 is about three times less than 5.43 X 10^12
If you don't see what's wrong with that statement, you should be backing me up. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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2,200,000,000 =/ 1,810,000,000,000, and roughly 3 X 2.2^9 would still be to the power of 9; and no I didn't need first year calc to figure that out (though I do confess to getting a student to check my answer).
I don't recall how having a knowledge of how 'to the powers of' helped me improve in my fields of history and literature, either.
But if we can agree to disagree, surely we can at least agree that a 15-16 year old who doesn't like math shouldn't be forced to take 18 math lessons a week? |
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