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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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 Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Incredible documentary... |
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| "Sex Drugs and Politics", about the freedoms of the social system in Holland. It's totally mind blowing and very eye opening. If you're a techy, just go get it, or pm me and I'll email you the torrent and you can download it yourself... |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I saw that a few years ago.
A review from IMDb:
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| I've always known that Holland was one of the best countries in the world, but here's a fascinating look at all the reasons why. This entertaining documentary shows all the fun stuff like legalized brothels and 'coffeehouses' (places where hashish is sold and consumed openly), as well as cool stuff like nude beaches (women are actually allowed to go topless on any beach in the country), female priests, and 'banana bars' (don't ask!). But the underlying point is the tremendous amount of tolerance that people there have for other people's rights, and for accepting the distribution of wealth in the way of high taxation for the rich. Despite the legalization of numerous 'vices', Holland has the lowest rates in sex-related diseases, abortion and teen pregnancy (sex education is mandatory in all schools, and all schools BTW, are free and equal in terms of quality of education). And it has among the lowest rates in terms of drug abuse, despite the fact that 'soft drugs' are legal, and methadone and clean needles are given to anyone who asks. Poverty is virtually non-existent, as is racism and homophobia (ACT UP actually had to leave Holland because there was nothing to act up against!). And the Woman's Party is insuring the strongest policies against inequality and violence against women. Add legalized abortion and euthanasia, and strong environmental policies (one-fifth of Greenpeace's world membership resides in Holland), and you've basically got a model society. All of these policies would mean nothing though in any other country because as Holland acknowledges, the most important thing is that everyone is brought up to respect other people's rights and to believe in the common good of the people over one's own moral or religious beliefs (and in some cases, personal selfishness). It is a country that really does exist for all of the people, and even in its practice of leniency of vices, it ironically insures a safer world. For the one thing Holland is dedicated to being against is intolerance and violence. It is an amazing phenomenon to see a society functioning so well, especially when one considers a city like Amsterdam, which is among the highest population per capita in the world, and where up to 50% of the population are from other countries with vastly different cultural backgrounds. I'm sure it is not a perfect society. The film sort of overshadows any negative aspects. But it is as perfect a society that we could ever hope to see. And the film really does make one re-evaluate what freedom, liberty, justice for all and democracy really mean. And how far the USA has so profoundly regressed from those utopian elements on which it was founded. |
I've NEVER had a bad time during any of my visits to Holland. The weather may be bleak, but when it clears up, boy do you appreciate it.
Namaste. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. Holland is a very cool country. I spent a total of about 5 months there in the early 90's. Packing tulip bulbs!
It's not all a bed of tulips though! Despite the Dutch being very tolerant of alternative lifestyles most of them would never actually live that way themselves. There are a lot of liberals in Amsterdam but outside there, in the small towns and countryside, I noticed the people really looked down their nose at anyone who smoked spliff, were gay etc. Most Dutch people are quite conservative in a very, "do-what-you-like-but-don't-ever-come-near-me-if-you-do", kind of way.
But, for a densely populated country, it doesn't feel crowded. Renting a boat and exploring the canals is hugely entertaining. The food is great.
When I was there I met many British/Irish who used their EU citizenship to get unemployment benefit in Holland. You only have to work 6 months of the year to be entitled to benefit of up to 80% of your last pay for another 6 months. Many people I met were working through the Winter in greenhouse jobs then quitting and getting benefit and partying right through the Summer!!! |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry to those looking for it, I gave the wrong name. It's actually called "Sex Drugs and DEMOCRACY" and can be found on Torrentspy... |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
| When I was there I met many British/Irish who used their EU citizenship to get unemployment benefit in Holland. You only have to work 6 months of the year to be entitled to benefit of up to 80% of your last pay for another 6 months. Many people I met were working through the Winter in greenhouse jobs then quitting and getting benefit and partying right through the Summer!!! |
I stayed in Amsterdam a few years back.
Met a local 40-year-old Dutch musician who said he'd spent his entire life just getting benefits from his government.. never worked a day in his life. Well, almost never. He said he just began his first construction job 6-months or so back.. and he was so excited to actually be doing something using skills and such. He couldn't stop talking about how great it was to actually have something to do when he woke up.
The memory of the guy's words always stuck in my mind.. and kind of symbolizes the Netherlands for me. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| A wellfare system that strong of course is open to absuse. But check the documentary. The level of unemployment there is very low. Likewise, despite the very permissive laws on drugs and sex, the level of stds, aids, and unwanted pregnancy is also very low. Even the level of hard drug addicts is low. And the level of people in jail per capita is low. And there is no poverty. The price of course is that the rich are taxed quite hard, but actually the rich agree to this, and the society is remarkably harmonious, healthy, and safe. The level of freedom for gays and minorities is amazing. This really would make a lot of conservative americans choke, because all the bad things that they say would happen if laws in the states were liberalised simply dont happen, according to studies in the Netherlands. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| There are a lot of liberals in Amsterdam but outside there, in the small towns and countryside, I noticed the people really looked down their nose at anyone who smoked spliff, were gay etc. Most Dutch people are quite conservative in a very, "do-what-you-like-but-don't-ever-come-near-me-if-you-do", kind of way. |
re: pot. If you were smokin' in public yes that is VERY frowned upon. It's considered very disrespectful.
As for gay folks, hm. My family (all my aunts, uncles cousins) have all said to me that they could absolutely not care less about drugs or gayness. I have about 30 extended family members (whom i have ALL talked with) and only 2 of them live in OR near amsterdam. All the others are either countryside/hamlet (up near groenigen sp?) or bigger cities like viennen (near Utrecht), Rotterdam, etc...
I think it SHOULD be noted that "tolerated" and "liked" are two completely different ideas. And while there ARE a lot of dutch people who tolerate drug and gay laws etc.... a lot of them tolerate AND don't like them. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There are a lot of liberals in Amsterdam but outside there, in the small towns and countryside, I noticed the people really looked down their nose at anyone who smoked spliff, were gay etc. Most Dutch people are quite conservative in a very, "do-what-you-like-but-don't-ever-come-near-me-if-you-do", kind of way. |
re: pot. If you were smokin' in public yes that is VERY frowned upon. It's considered very disrespectful.
As for gay folks, hm. My family (all my aunts, uncles cousins) have all said to me that they could absolutely not care less about drugs or gayness. I have about 30 extended family members (whom i have ALL talked with) and only 2 of them live in OR near amsterdam. All the others are either countryside/hamlet (up near groenigen sp?) or bigger cities like viennen (near Utrecht), Rotterdam, etc...
I think it SHOULD be noted that "tolerated" and "liked" are two completely different ideas. And while there ARE a lot of dutch people who tolerate drug and gay laws etc.... a lot of them tolerate AND don't like them. |
Sure, toleration is good enough. If the society is to be judged by it's stats though, low unemployment, low teen pregnancy, low std's, low aids, low jail population, low crime, low poverty, strong position and protection for women, protection for gays, protection for ethinic minorities, low civil disorder, we have to say that the liberal model is a resounding sucess. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
Yeah. Holland is a very cool country. I spent a total of about 5 months there in the early 90's. Packing tulip bulbs!
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Check.
Don't tell me you worked for Internet Ltd in Belfast?
I was working for jan leanders. I led a strike that almost broke the factory. (too many bulbs, not enuff time!)
And yes..the Netherlands...ROCKS! |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Don't tell me you worked for Internet Ltd in Belfast? |
I'm not sure, but I remember the name of the recruiter. Reine de Groot. He had an office on Great Victoria Street.
No need for a strike where I worked. I did two summers at a well-run factory in Noordwijkerhout. But for the life of me I can't remember the factorys name. Maybe the potent weed has erased that memory from my mind!! Blurry days......
But, yes. The Dutch really have a good thing going there and they don't need to have police all over the place to keep order either. The funny thing was, you rarely saw the Dutch police. But, if there was the slightest hint of trouble, they would be there in seconds to sort it out. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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If the Dutch are so enlightened and amazing.. why are they having so many problems with muslims in their country?
I'm not sure about those non-white double standards.
 Me ---> (self-appointed devil's advocated to get this thread moving).
Just trying to get things rolling here in an interesting downhill sled kind of way.. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| They are having problems cause they are so damn liberal. Of all countries, Holland would be the first to get up a Muslims nasal cavity... |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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AMSTERDAMN ROCKS!!!
not only for its erb! but just the city!! A beautiful city!
spent days just walking around it..
the rest of holland well that will be another trip.. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| This really would make a lot of conservative americans choke, because all the bad things that they say would happen if laws in the states were liberalised simply dont happen, according to studies in the Netherlands. |
Let's pray the US has the wisdom to base its laws and policies on documentaries. |
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Endesu
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, I have been to the Netherlands quite a few times, but Im not a big fan. I agree that its liberal and open and all that, but to say that Amsterdam is beatiful is stretching it.
Its rather dirty and filthy, and not very well maintained. I think its a decent city, but nothing compared to the "nicer" cities in Europe like Vienna, Zurich etc.
And for me, the constant smell of pot on every corner is not exactly a plus. Especially not when you see all the North Americans who think they died and went to heaven in these coffeeshops. "Duude, Amsterdam f*cking rocks man". Yuck.
Its funny that most of the Dutch people I met actually tell me how much they would like to move away from the country. There was a documentary a few years back on how some Dutch people were moving to the countryside in Norway, as far away from urban life as possible, because of the crowds and multiculturalism in their own country.
I mean Im all for integration and liberalism, but Im not sure Holland is Edens Garden like its laid out to be on here.
For example when it comes to unemployment rate, Netherlands ranks 60th in the world according to CIA World Factbook, which puts them behing several other European countries.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html
And in the quality of life survey done by the Economist last year, they came in 16th place.
http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005
I guess quality of life is all in the eye of the beholder, but I dont think most Dutch people see their own country as such a great place to live. |
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