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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: Buying a Nobel Peace Prize, and Roh's other stupid ideas |
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An interesting read
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200605/200605230015.html
Some interesting bits:
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| In the wake of Roh's remarks in Mongolia that he is ready to make �many concessions� to North Korea and offer institutional and material assistance, Unification Minister Lee Jong-seok said an inter-Korean summit should be held within the year, adding he opposes any attempt to force regime change in the North. "Provided the North gives a reason the people can agree to, the entire W1.2 trillion (US$1.2 billion) of the Inter-Korean Cooperation Fund can be used," he bragged. |
How much did DJ pay for his peace prize? Looks like the cost of organizing one of these things has gone up dramatically. I wonder if Roh is expecting to get a peace prize too. 1.2 billion dolars eh?
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| In the wake of Roh's remarks in Mongolia that he is ready to make �many concessions� to North Korea and offer institutional and material assistance, |
Id say! Just keep reading:
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| At the inter-Korean generals meeting, Pyongyang raised its demands to redraw the Northern Limit Line in the West Sea, the maritime extension of the armistice line. Our side hinted at a "sign of concession," as if it were ready to seek an alternative to the NLL |
Paying off the North to get some meaningless summit and maybe buy a Nobel is one thing, but holy smokes, this government is actually thinking of redrawing the border - i.e. GIVING UP TERRITORY to the North. Seriously, while buying a summit is cheap politics, giving up territory is, well, treason. is it not? Is there a single country in the world that would give up its territory? Geez, no wonder people are ready to sweep this bunch out of office.
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| The heads of the pro-Seoul Korean Residents Union in Japan or Mindan and the pro-Pyongyang General Association of Korean Residents in Japan or Chongryon embraced each other, and shortly afterwards we heard that Mindan will stop helping North Korean refugees |
This sort of goes along with remarks from top officials about not wanting anymore refugees. Chung certainly has gone on record about that. I mean, let them starve, we dont want to upset uncle Jong Il. I wonder if Mindan was in any way influenced by the government here in the ROK.
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| In the protests against the U.S. base expansion in Pyeongtaek, activists assaulted South Korean troops. Everything the prime minister, defense minister and ruling party lawmakers did and said made people heave a deep sigh and ask themselves whether is this really the Republic of Korea. The timing of former president Kim Dae-jung's impending visit to Pyongyang is also peculiar. It is sad to feel as if South Korea's last line of defense is being eroded. |
Isnt that the truth. Terrorist groups, which are btw recognized and supported by the Ministry of Capitulation, or Unification if you will, attacked SK TROOPS and what did this limp wristed government do? Pretty much NOTHING. And whats with DJ? I wonder how much his visit to NK cost..I guess he didnt pay enough as his wet dream of travelling by train may not come off. Will see, maybe they can use the trillion or so won from the summit budget to grease the wheels and get that old fart to Pyeongyang by train. Second Peace Prize? I wonder if they will ever revoke his first..makes people who actually did something to deserve it other than pay up with Cheabol money look kinda bad by association.
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| Meanwhile, North Korea�s Committee for the Peaceful Unification of the Fatherland on Thursday issued a statement to its "South Korean compatriots," asserting that if the Grand National Party wins in the May 31 local elections, the country will see "a regime of warmongers servile to the U.S. " "The correct judgment and choice is to cast peace votes for candidates of the June 15 peace forces,� we are instructed -- a reference to the 2000 Joint Declaration and those thought to act in its spirit. Uriminzokkiri, a North Korean web site, said a few days later, "If the way is paved for the GNP to seize power, the entire nation will suffer the ravages from America's shameless war schemes." |
Well, if the URI DUNG is the arty of choice up North, I sure as hell wouldnt vote for them. And ofcourse they are. KJI could use a trillion real won as his are worthless, but he will probably prefer it in evil yankee dollars instead. Ofcourse he has enough of his own printed off but dont tell that to the current government, they will deny deny deny. Nothing like a committee "for the Peaceful Unification of the Fatherland" thratening war if their brothers from Uri Dung dont win eh? Am I the only one who sees the humor in that? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:02 am Post subject: |
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Jinju:
I don't know how long you've been reading this board for, but if you think this is some hotbed of pro-Sunshine sentiment in depserate need of correction from you, you're wrong. I don't think you'll find too many Roh Moo Hyun supporters here. I'm probably the biggest pro-Uri guy on this board, and even I think the Sunshine Policy is in need of some serious re-tooling.
The stuff about the "bought" summit is old news, known to anyone whose been paying cursory attention to Korean politics the last few years. The most serious allegation in the Chosun article you posted is...
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| Matters are not confined to remarks from the top. At the inter-Korean generals meeting, Pyongyang raised its demands to redraw the Northern Limit Line in the West Sea, the maritime extension of the armistice line. Our side hinted at a "sign of concession," as if it were ready to seek an alternative to the NLL. |
Can you explain to me what it means that the South "hinted at a 'sign of concession'"? I'm sorry, but there's not much context there; it's one line in a paragraph containing several rapid-fire criticisms. And, I am reluctant to take a Chosun Ilbo columninst as a "source of record" on anything related to the Roh Moo Hyun adminstration. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| I believe it means they are ready to redraw the line as per the wishes of the DPRK. Its that simple. Afterall we are in the era of uncoditional support for the North. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: |
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believe it means they are ready to redraw the line as per the wishes of the DPRK. Its that simple. Afterall we are in the era of uncoditional support for the North.
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Again, you have provided no context to back up your assumption that any re-drawing would be unconditional. If you want to continue this discussion, please find another article, preferably one devoted entirely to the issue of re-drawing the line. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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believe it means they are ready to redraw the line as per the wishes of the DPRK. Its that simple. Afterall we are in the era of uncoditional support for the North.
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Again, you have provided no context to back up your assumption that any re-drawing would be unconditional. If you want to continue this discussion, please find another article, preferably one devoted entirely to the issue of re-drawing the line. |
Heres the disconnect between us. I think that any talk of a redrawing, even if by a millimeter should be met with a resounding "NO!". Just one word. Redrawing of territory should be an absolute no-no, and any government that agrees to it is committing treason. Conditions are for me worthless as this is something that shouldnt even be considered. Yet here we are, with a government that is actually considering giving up territory. Conditions or no, its treason.
You did ask me my opinion of what it means and I gave it to you. I believe that Roh migh actually do it for a promise of a summit. That will be even worse than paying off KJI with Chaebol cash..it will be blood money used for his political gains. Its disgusting anyway you cut it. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure this will come as no surprise, but your views are more of a disconnect between you and reality than anything else.
Pummeling North Korea into the ground will not work- it hasn't worked in the last 50 years, and it didn't work while KJI let millions starve. The Sunshine Policy as it has been implemented may very well be flawed, but that does not negate the simple and obvious fact that any solution to the Koreas will involve some form of negotiations with the North (Why else would Park Geun Hye meet with KJI?).
That you cannot see this is disturbing to say the least, but of course it is consistent with everything else you've been saying.
| OTOH wrote: |
| I don't think you'll find too many Roh Moo Hyun supporters here. |
Certainly not, to be sure.
But if he (Roo) is a typical small-minded politician (petty, histrionic, plays to the perceived fears and desires, and prejudices of the voting public), that's still a very far cry from being an aware and willing tool of the DPRK).
Jinju, it's incredible that you are incapable of differentiating between the two... or rather- it is extremely stupid and counter-productive that you refuse to differentiate between the two.
At this point, I'm not certain which is the more accurate statement. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Pummeling North Korea into the ground will not work- it hasn't worked in the last 50 years, and it didn't work while KJI let millions starve. The Sunshine Policy as it has been implemented may very well be flawed, but that does not negate the simple and obvious fact that any solution to the Koreas will involve some form of negotiations with the North (Why else would Park Geun Hye meet with KJI?). |
I have to agree with this..........there is no longer any point with confrontational chest beating. Maybe Roh hasn't always done the right thing (especially in terms of focusing on human rights abuses, refugees) but I think he has the right goal in mind. To help the Korean people in the near term, with practical needs. This involves economic development and unfortunately paying off and cooperating with a very "idealogically" stuck regime.
I believe that progress and peace will only come about through many more exchanges. Atleast he is allowing that to happen, for people to imagine the unthinkable. First steps.
Jinju, you sound like some young boy lining up his soldiers, saying "never surrender!"........what's the end game of this? Just war and death. Not what a politician should be seeking. There must be both a strong back and a strong hand shake....
By the way, I'm sure many have seen this essay but I'll post a link......
http://nkzone.typepad.com/nkzone/files/myths_of_the_hermit_columns.doc
I think at times very naive but in general he does make some sense....
DD |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Nobel Peace Prize, and Roh's other stupid ideas |
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[quote="jinju"]
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| Quote: |
| At the inter-Korean generals meeting, Pyongyang raised its demands to redraw the Northern Limit Line in the West Sea, the maritime extension of the armistice line. Our side hinted at a "sign of concession," as if it were ready to seek an alternative to the NLL |
Paying off the North to get some meaningless summit and maybe buy a Nobel is one thing, but holy smokes, this government is actually thinking of redrawing the border - i.e. GIVING UP TERRITORY to the North. Seriously, while buying a summit is cheap politics, giving up territory is, well, treason. is it not? Is there a single country in the world that would give up its territory? Geez, no wonder people are ready to sweep this bunch out of office. |
For one thing, this was discussed months ago, and has been going on for ages, because it is disputed since it was a unilateral demarcation imposed by the UN under US pressure which ceded all Nautical rights around island territory to the South, the US Ally.....
Changing the Northern boudary was concidered by both North and South earlier this year as a fairer distribution and demarcation of the NLL in reference to the original ceasefire...it cedes no territory, but rather redraws the Nautical limitations of both countries, based on the original agreements that put a halt to the Korean War....both the North and South are compromising on this one... |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Semantics, nothing else. There should be no compromise on this issue at all. The line is not up for any debate, and this must be communicated to the North. What you assume is that this government will have the backbone to get a fair compromise. I believe that the redrawn line will be pretty much done on NK's terms. Thats how this government operates.
Whats the end game? A non-existant NK. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think it would be appropriate to read the just released Amnesty International World Report , 2006
http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport/annualreport.html
It adds to this discussion because its main focus is on how the promotion of state security (borders/immigration/military forces/fighting terror) has hurt/killed thousands around the globe and gotten governments nowhere........It chastizes governments for taking insular, "protective" and "unfree" approaches towards international peace and goodwill.....
Chest beating with N.Korea will get nobody anywhere, especially the poor in N.Korea.
DD |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| If only we could get Patchy over here; between the two of them this thread could go on autopilot, no course corrections needed. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I think it would be appropriate to read the just released Amnesty International World Report , 2006
http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport/annualreport.html
It adds to this discussion because its main focus is on how the promotion of state security (borders/immigration/military forces/fighting terror) has hurt/killed thousands around the globe and gotten governments nowhere........It chastizes governments for taking insular, "protective" and "unfree" approaches towards international peace and goodwill.....
Chest beating with N.Korea will get nobody anywhere, especially the poor in N.Korea.
DD |
The thing is that with this government you dont get chest thumping, which I really dont think is the right solution, but total bending over. Yeah, Im all for carrots but there have to be sticks and currently, there are none. Just as an example, the North cancelled test runs of the railways. What do you really think will come of this? I predict Seoul will beg the North to reconsider. The North will, then will cancel again and Seoul will do nothing but beg them again. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| Yeah, Im all for carrots but there have to be sticks and currently, there are none. |
Really? You're for 'carrots', some concessions or rewards to North Korea in order to bring them to the bargaining table?
This is the first time you have indicated this so I'm curious, what are some reasonable carrots you would offer to NK?
Or is "carrots" just a concept you mis-use, like "terrorists"?
Honest question here, I really am curious to hear what you have to say. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I am for carrots, yes. To bring them to the table? Im sorry, did they not sign an agreement a few months ago? Well, I expect them to abide by what they signed. This game of signing, renegging to get more concessions, signing again only to violate the agreement they signed pretty much immediately aftr signing it and then wanting more and more concessions and rewards for coming back to again sign an agreement they are not willing to honor...that game is over. If they keep to the agreement, do it verifiably, then I say follow the Libya example. Improve relations and let the situation warm up. That would be great. A law abiding NK is a country I would welcome.
Once they do what they said they would (and everyone else does too), I am all for additional carrots that can be negotiated in exchange for an improved human rights situation, and other crimes the North commits (drug smuggling is one).
That said, I am for sticks and if they do not come back, I say beat them with the sticks.
Last edited by jinju on Wed May 24, 2006 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Again, what carrots would you offer, exactly? And in exchange for what, precisely?
I'm thinking you don't actually know how the whole pan o palo thing works. |
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