Korean Job Discussion Forums

[mack the knife]

Is there a grammatical difference? Does it depend on the subject?

For instance:

I can be fast when need be.

He can be fast when needs be.



I read and hear both of them frequently.

[EFLtrainer]

[VanIslander]

[mmstyle]

Um, archaic in the US?...guess I'm archaic. Luckily, I don't mind!

[cubanlord]

I would say "need" when i have only one need that has to be met
I would say "needs" be if I have to satisfy more than one need

(This being in context to what you are saying).

[Alan Partidge]

I think EFL Trainer's got it right.
I need....
He/She needs....

As far as teaching it you could just say that it's not really used that much anymore. We need to teach ss grammar, but we also need to teach them what does and doesn't make them sound like tools.

[EFLtrainer]

[cubanlord]

[Privateer]

It doesn't matter if it's 'need' or 'needs'. It's either uncountable or countable, respectively, but it makes little difference to the meaning. [Oh, in other words, it is a noun!]

cubanlord: both 'need' and 'needs' refer to the general concept not to anything specific. It's not necessary to think about and count up your specific need or needs.

EFLTrainer: you're onto a red herring with subject-verb agreement there.

First, the beauty of the expression 'when need/needs be' is you dispense with the unnecessary pronoun.

Second, the type of need referred to is the broader concept of need so it is clumsy to tie it to any one person by linking with the pronoun 'he' or 'I'.

Third, the subject of a when clause is normally independent of the subject of the main clause. e.g.:

'I don't go for walks when it rains.'

No-one would suggest that the verb 'rain' has to agree with the subject 'I'.

Another example:

'If need/needs be, I'll come back and replace it for you.' (I'm more familiar with the expression 'if need be' and 'if needs be' which are interchangeable, but this looks analogous.)

Here, 'if I need to' could stand in for 'if needs be', but so could 'if you need me to', or 'if it needs replacing'. Why tie yourself to any one specific meaning?

By the way can anyone confirm that 'when need(s) be' is the subjunctive? I've never been clear on the definition of the subjunctive...

[EFLtrainer]

[Privateer]

Ah, you're right: I shouldn't post when hungover.

[daskalos]

Searching around a bit, I find the expression "need/needs be" is idiomatic, and as such, there isn't really a right or wrong regarding number. Archaic? Only if "if need be" is, and I hear that all the, all the, all the time.

My ear loathes "needs be", and if I've ever heard it, I've blotted it out of my memory in an act of uncharacteristically christian kindness.

I see the "need" not related at all to the subject, but a separate, conditional element that is being speculated upon, so the way I parse it is:

She can be fast when [the] need [for her to to] be [exists].

[Stephen Jones]

"if need be" is the present subjunctive.

Another example is "long live the queen" .

The subjunctive in English, both present and past, has only one form for all persons so
"if need be", "If I were you" ---- subjunctive
"if needs be" "If I was you" ---- indicative.

[Universalis]

Sounds like an example of the subjunctive to me...

Brian

[mack the knife]