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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: Three U.S. soldiers charged with murder |
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Three U.S. soldiers charged in deaths of Iraqi detainees.
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WASHINGTON -- Three U.S. soldiers accused of killing civilian detainees have been charged with murder, the Pentagon announced yesterday -- the first time American troops in Iraq have been accused of a capital offence in connection with the deaths of defenceless detainees.
The charges are the latest blow to the U.S. military's battered reputation as it battles a violent insurgency more than three years after President George W. Bush declared war to oust Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. |
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| A murder conviction can carry the death penalty under U.S. military justice. Last year, Captain Rogelio Maynulet, who was originally charged with murder for shooting a wounded Iraqi twice in the head, was convicted of lesser charges and kicked out of the U.S. Army. In that instance, Capt. Maynulet successfully persuaded the court that the shooting of the badly wounded Iraqi was a mercy killing. |
Can you say "The begining of the end..."
It has gone on too long, the invasion, though premised on good intentions (not the WMD bullshit, but regime change) has finally come to an end....the government with all its preperation and buildup for the assault has severely neglected it's legal duty as the occupying force to uphold and maintain security due to poor planning and an overly optimistic sense of morality.....
The war will not end until, the US can somehow leave......and the Iraqi people will be the ones to deal with all the crap left over....... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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I am sorry to hear that these soldiers are accused of this. I am confident that, if guilty, they will be punished.
This war is certainly degenerating into what one might expect from such a protracted conflict...Indeed, it has been so since insurgents started decapitating hostages and then releasing the footage for terroristic effect.
And, yes, I agree that this might have been at least mitigated had our leaders (namely, W. Bush, Cheney, and especially Rumsfeld) not been so wrong in so many of their planning assumptions -- beginning with the premises surrounding the invasion itself.
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BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The bodies of two U.S. soldiers found in Iraq Monday night were mutilated and booby-trapped, military sources said Tuesday.
Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, Texas, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Oregon, went missing after a Friday attack on a traffic control checkpoint in Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 kilometers) south of Baghdad.
The sources said the two men had suffered severe trauma.
The bodies also had been desecrated and a visual identification was impossible -- part of the reason DNA testing was being conducted to verify their identities, the sources said.
A tip from Iraqi civilians led officials to the bodies, military sources told CNN. The discovery was made about 7:30 p.m. Monday.
Not only were the bodies booby-trapped, but homemade bombs also lined the road leading to the victims, an apparent effort to complicate recovery efforts and target recovery teams, the sources said.
It took troops 12 hours to clear the area of roadside bombs. One of the bombs exploded, but there were no injuries.
The bodies were found in the Yusufiya area, said U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, adding he believed the soldiers were mortally wounded, then moved.
It was unclear whether he meant the wounds were suffered in the initial attack on a checkpoint or afterward. "Where we found them was not based on their own movements," Caldwell said.
The soldiers' families have been notified of the developments, he said.
The bodies were transferred to a coalition base and were to be taken to the United States for DNA testing.
A high-ranking official with the Iraqi defense ministry earlier offered a conflicting account, telling CNN the soldiers' bodies were found Saturday in Jurf al-Sakhar town about 50 miles (80 kilometers) south of Baghdad.
Group claims killings
A claim posted on a Web site Tuesday said the soldiers were "slaughtered" in accordance with "God's will."
"We announce the good news to our Islamic nation that we executed God's will and slaughtered the two crusader animals we had in captivity," said the claim, reportedly from the Mujahedeen Shura Council, a group linked to al Qaeda.
"And God has given our Emir, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer, the good fortune of carrying out the legitimate court's command in person."
The U.S. military believes al-Muhajer is another name for Abu Ayyub al-Masri, an Egyptian-born terrorist who it believes has replaced Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, killed in a U.S. airstrike earlier this month, as leader of al Qaeda in Iraq.
CNN could not independently verify the claim, but the Web site frequently has carried such messages from insurgent groups.
Asked whether he gives credibility to a Monday claim by the same group that it had abducted the soldiers, Caldwell said, "Absolutely not."
Earlier, military spokesman Maj. William Wilhoite said he did not know whether the bodies showed signs of torture. "I haven't heard anything through our official channels," he said.
The U.S. military said Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Massachusetts, was killed in the Friday attack, after which Menchaca and Tucker went missing.
Asked to provide more information about the attack, Caldwell said the military would provide details after making sure the soldiers' families were fully apprised about the incident.
Families 'devastated'
Menchaca's aunt told CNN the family had been notified of his death.
Menchaca's uncle, Mario Vasquez, said family members were distraught and were waiting to receive the body before making any arrangements.
Earlier, some family members heard of a possible discovery through the media, before being notified by the military, Vasquez said.
He called for the military to retaliate swiftly against the kidnappers.
"I wish they'd punish the people that do these kinds of things right away, instead of taking forever and spending millions of dollars," Vasquez said.
"I think you capture them, make them pay for what they did. Don't think that it's just two more soldiers. Don't negotiate anything. They [the killers] didn't."
Another of Menchaca's uncles, Ken MacKenzie, lashed out at the government on NBC's "Today Show," saying it didn't do enough to bring the men home safe, The Associated Press reported.
A force of more than 8,000 Iraqi and U.S. troops searched for the two soldiers. Searchers initially found a body thought to be that of one of the soldiers, Caldwell said, but turned out not to be.
Caldwell said troops used unmanned aerial vehicles, helicopters, boats and dive teams in the search.
One coalition soldier was killed and 12 were wounded during the search operations, he said. Two "anti-Iraqi elements" were killed and another 78 suspected insurgents have been detained, he said.
The Oregon National Guard released a statement on behalf of the Tucker family Tuesday afternoon.
"At this time, the family is devastated at the news their son may have been killed," the statement said. "They ask for continuing respect for their privacy now at this time of difficulty."
The three soldiers involved in Friday's attack were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the military said. |
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/20/soldiers.missing/index.html |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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I fear that it will only be more of this tit-for-tat kind of incidents......it is the one way that insurgents know how to manipulate the US homefront....
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I fear that it will only be more of this tit-for-tat kind of incidents......it is the one way that insurgents know how to manipulate the US homefront.... |
Like the tit for tat above, a la Gopher's posting of the article about the American soldiers killed???? Same kind of mentality -- we need to respond.
I say don't respond, just slink away. America should return to the norms of civilized behaviour -- return to International law. Their whole fiasco and invasion of a non combative, fly zoned in nation was just a lie and against any kind of ethics..........
Truth of the matter is America thought it would be a cakewalk. I don't mean they thought that the Iraqi's would welcome them with open arms and roses (but they hoped). I mean, they KNEW Iraq was militarily bankrupted, poor and without defense. They KNEW they'd have a turkey shoot. Anyone who denies that is just fooling themselves. They thought they could imprison a whole nation! Once again the military underestimated what people will fight for..................
DD
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Just to clarify, the only people who are contextualizing the article I posted as "a tit-for-tat" justification are you two moralizing morons.
I was merely introducing a broader context: degenerative protracted "dirty war" leads to nothing good on either side.
Keep blaming the U.S. and suggesting, with your absurd rhetoric, that Washington wanted to "imprison" the entire Iraqi nation, though. If nothing else, it makes for a good laugh.
On another thread, Ddeubel, you wrote...
| Ddeubel wrote: |
| I think America should...try to change the world in a more productive and humane fashion. |
I would tend to agree with this. But, tell me, why do you not offer the same advice to Islamic Fundamentalists? |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Just to clarify, the only people who are contextualizing the article I posted as "a tit-for-tat" justification are you two moralizing morons.
I was merely introducing a broader context: degenerative protracted "dirty war" leads to nothing good on either side.
Keep blaming the U.S. and suggesting, with your absurd rhetoric, that Washington wanted to "imprison" the entire Iraqi nation, though.
If nothing else, it makes for a good laugh. |
You know, I was agreeing with you on this, that due to a lack of forethought and extensive planing, the war in Iraq is failing. That if more thought and contextualization were used, it could have been a sucessful medium for change.
But like an old badger, you back yourself into a corner and get your heckles up when it is suggested that US actions could be comparable to insurgent actions, even though they are both faced with the same realities of seeing their friends killed each day...at least the US soldier ostensibly knows that his or her mother is safe at home, not so for the Iraqi insurgent.
You are always talking about seeing the incidents that we discuss through a wider context, why can you never understand that the people that your country are fighting, also see them selves as right.
You confuse morals with ethics, some would call them synonymous, but I would not. Morality tends to deal with a cultural or a religious sense of right and wrong, while ethics deals simply with right and wrong without the influence of ones own prejudices......you cannot accept the comparison of a US murderer and an Iraqi murderer....there is a moral/ethical contradiction.....
I see them both as murderers, you see one as better than the other, even though they both truly believe they are doing right....that is the problem...
| Quote: |
| Just to clarify, the only people who are contextualizing the article I posted as "a tit-for-tat" justification are you two moralizing morons. |
Nice...... |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| It's such a mess I have to wonder if a pullout now would be abandoning those Iraqis deemed to have helped the US to a fate worse than hell at the hands of insurgents. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bignate wrote: |
| ...why can you [not] understand that the people...your country [is] fighting...also [believe they are] right[?] |
Who says I do not recognize this? Show me where I have said anything like this.
| bignate wrote: |
| ...you see one as better than the other... |
No. Show me where I said anything like this.
Bignate: you seem to feel that when I do not accept your antiAmerican worldview, that this somehow means that I believe the United States is perfect, or worse: righteous.
You also seem to feel compelled to "counter" any information that does not show the U.S. in an unfavorable light with all of the negative information and analysis in your possession. You say that you want to be sure that no one believes that the U.S. is without fault or shortcomings.
But, to begin with, no one believes this. Certainly I do not.
That is the problem.
You speak of having one's heckles raised. Please relax, read these posts again, and show me where I have said what you allege I say. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| bignate wrote: |
| ...why can you [not] understand that the people...your country [is] fighting...also [believe they are] right[?] |
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You should throw a sic in there if you want to edit my literal licence....but anyways, let's make this very easy...
Gopher- can you understand how the people that are now fighting the US military also see themselves as being right....or in the right?
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| Who says I do not recognize this? Show me where I have said anything like this. |
answer the question
| bignate wrote: |
| ...you see one as better than the other... |
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| No. Show me where I said anything like this. |
Gopher, do you feel that the US soldiers killing Iraqi's are somehow better than the Iraqi insurgents killing American's ????
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| You say that you want to be sure that no one believes that the U.S. is without fault or shortcomings. |
I don't believe I said that.....
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| But, to begin with, no one believes this. Certainly I do not. |
Atleast one point in this sentence is true....
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| You speak of having one's heckles raised. Please relax, read these posts again, and show me where I have said what you allege I say. |
The thing is, I have never called anyone a moron, or other such tripe......I really don't think I need to relax....hell I am more relaxed than the bobster, and that is relaxed......[/quote]
Last edited by bignate on Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Bignate: the positions you say I have seem to exist only in your head.
I am not going to defend myself against your accusations that I somehow hold opinions that you assign to me and then demand that I explain. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher, I think that if not for the US War, these people would have been existing under the same tyrant that they had accepted for decades.....they would have been scared, yet they would have at least known who to be scared of and who to fear...unlike now.
If the US were to leave immediately, there would be chaos, and blood and death...just like now...perhaps a civil war, if it isn't already a civil war....but it would be theirs, and not ours. It would be their decision, and not ours..then we coule help, help them with their infrastructure, that we helped to destroy...help them with their internal security, that we helped them to destroy, etc, etc........ |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Bignate: the positions you say I have seem to exist only in your head.
I am not going to defend myself against your accusations that I somehow hold opinions that you assign to me and then demand that I explain. |
In my last post I clearly asked you questions.....all you have to do is answer.......they are not accusations |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Why are you afraid to answer questions? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bignate wrote: |
| ...help, help them with their infrastructure, that we helped to destroy...help them with their internal security, that we helped them to destroy... |
Bignate: there was no infrastructure. Get your facts right first.
One of the fallacies in U.S. warplanning was that occupation forces would simply remove Saddam and then take over his, Washington assumed, infrastructure.
But there was not one. That is simply the nature of personalist dictatorships -- and the govt should have known better.
Removing Saddam and his followers...yes, that did destroy Iraq's "internal security," if you insist on calling it that. It also liberated quite a few people. I believe I saw footage of a room with meathooks, for example... |
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