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Asians and Evolution
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AbbeFaria



Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Asians and Evolution Reply with quote

Sorry if I'm spoiling the new World Cup forum, but just wanted to ask a question about something that's always made me wonder.

If you agree with evolution, that all of us folks migrated out of Africa some hundred thousand years ago, or whatever the number was, and all that comes along with it, this question is for you.

I know the theories that black people are black because of the intense heat and exposure to sun in Africa and their skins developed a darker pigmant to protect them from said exposure. Also that the white folks who migrated primarily in to Europe and the surrounding parts lost that pigmant over the years since the sun is less severe there and we didn't need it. Those are kinda gimme's.

What I'm wondering is what environment along the lines led to the evolution of the "slanted" eyes of the Asian people. The sun is not really any more intense here than Africa, if so, the African people would have picked up the trait as well. At least I'm assuming, anyway. Beyond that though, looking at the climates and environments in this area, that aren't to much different than similar places in other parts of the globe, I can't think of what it might have been.

And also, what might have spawned the almost complete lack of body hair? The same trait holds true in Native Americans, but since they're closely linked, that's not surprising. Just what brought it about. Europeans and people from the mid-east have body hair, but as you go east, it fades out. The mid-east is much hotter than Asia in most regions.

Anyone have any ideas?

And I do hope that no one takes this and turns it into a thread on a discussion about the fact and/or fictions of Evolution. It's a simple question. There's already several threads about that other topic.

�S�
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JJK1



Joined: 22 May 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not 100% sure but I think it has to do with the cold weather and high winds (so things don't get in their eyes)
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Satori



Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JJK1 wrote:
I'm not 100% sure but I think it has to do with the cold weather and high winds (so things don't get in their eyes)

Which would make sense if you agree that the asiatic tribes originated in Mongolia...
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Delirium's Brother



Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also culture plays a role in evolution, by influencing or interfering with the ordinary transmission of certain phenotypes. If a trait is highly valued culturally, it's seen as beautiful or appealling in some other way, individuals with that trait will become highly sought after mates, while those without the trait won't find mates or have less chances to mate. Culture is a complicating factor visa-vis the normal evolutionary process.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above poster has a good point; mix that in with different waves of migration and you've got yourself a partial outcome.

I think we often take a look at things from a "one stimulant" perspective. I think we'd be surprised to find how many things affectthe direction of some people.

Here's a twist on the Africa to Asia thing : What about people from the south pacific and Aus/NZ? Quite the contrast from those in the North (that are said to be their origin).
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody read Guns, Germs and Steel. Your questions will be answered.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evolutionary ideas like this are rather simplistic and hugely flawed.

high cheekbones and thin eyes? I thought that came about due to squinting to look in the mirror constantly when applying make up.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The maintainance of the epicanthic fold into adulthood in many populations is believed to be an evolutionary defense against both the extreme cold as well as the extreme light that occurs in the Eurasian arctic and north. It has also been suggested that the fold provides some protection against dust in areas of desert such that found in the deserts of northern China and Mongolia as well as parts of Africa.

There is a wide distribution of the epicanthic fold across the world. It is found in significant numbers amongst Native Americans, the Khoisan of Southern Africa, many Central Asians and some people of Sami origin. The presence of epicanthal folds is common in people of many, though not all, groups of East Asian and Southeast Asian descent. It also occurs sometimes on people of South Asian descent. Due to classic genetics children of a parent with a pronounced epicanthal fold and one without an epicanthal fold will have varying degrees of epicanthal folds as a result.

In Asian cultures, the presence of an epicanthal fold is associated with the lack of an upper eyelid crease, commonly termed "single eyelids" as opposed to "double eyelids". The two features are distinct; a person may have both epicanthal fold and upper eyelid crease, one and not the other, or neither.


Epicanthal Fold

Quote:
Americans must be educated about the natural diversity of Tripartite Asian eyes.

All races are matters of opinion.

This misinformation or ignorance is so widespread among Americans that it has become a divisive issue of contention.


Bizarre Discussion of Asian Eyes That Bizarro Patchy May Have Had A Hand In Writing
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

99.999999999999% Sure It's Bizarro Patchy

This touch seems particularly patchivellian:

Quote:
If you would like to cite this page in MLA citation, it would be:
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RACETRAITOR



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it also possible that people in certain parts of the world had particular tastes about what they looked for in a mate? Evolution is more than just surviving. It's also about reproduction.
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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RACETRAITOR wrote:
Isn't it also possible that people in certain parts of the world had particular tastes about what they looked for in a mate? Evolution is more than just surviving. It's also about reproduction.


It's more than possible: it's certain. But most early taste in mates had to do with survivability, of the genes at least, anyway: Hairy K1 man kill beasts--bring food. Pre-Raphaelite woman have big hips--make many babies. Only in the age of the Internet and ICBMs could 이준기 be seriously considered as a mate.

the blank slate by Steven Pinker is a great read that deals with this subject.
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Troll_Bait



Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flotsam wrote:
99.999999999999% Sure It's Bizarro Patchy


Whoever this bizarr-o person is, he/she sure has an -How shall I put it?- interesting take on Asian religions.

(I especially like "Confucism.")

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flotsam



Joined: 28 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey TB, are you Mahaya or Hinaya?

I've always followed the revered elders of Booh-yah, myself.
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SirFink



Joined: 05 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Asians and Evolution Reply with quote

AbbeFaria wrote:
Anyone have any ideas?


I've heard about the wind thing too, but I've noticed a serious lack of sunglasses around here. I need to get some myself and go around squinting quite a bit outdoors. Koreans tell me "You look angry."
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Novernae



Joined: 02 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Asians and Evolution Reply with quote

AbbeFaria wrote:

I know the theories that black people are black because of the intense heat and exposure to sun in Africa and their skins developed a darker pigmant to protect them from said exposure. Also that the white folks who migrated primarily in to Europe and the surrounding parts lost that pigmant over the years since the sun is less severe there and we didn't need it. Those are kinda gimme's.

What I'm wondering is what environment along the lines led to the evolution of the "slanted" eyes of the Asian people. The sun is not really any more intense here than Africa, if so, the African people would have picked up the trait as well. At least I'm assuming, anyway. Beyond that though, looking at the climates and environments in this area, that aren't to much different than similar places in other parts of the globe, I can't think of what it might have been.

And also, what might have spawned the almost complete lack of body hair? The same trait holds true in Native Americans, but since they're closely linked, that's not surprising. Just what brought it about. Europeans and people from the mid-east have body hair, but as you go east, it fades out. The mid-east is much hotter than Asia in most regions. �S�


The first thing that has to be cleared up in your understanding of evolution is that the environment (I'll include cultural as well as natural environment here) is NOT respnsible for the existence of traits, it is simply responsible for the continued existence, or the passing on of a trait. Random mutations are what are responsible for the initial existance of traits. Some traits found in Asia might have been advantageous in Africa, or Scandinavia, but if the random mutation didn't occur in those populations, they can't have it. This is one of the biggest misconceptions and misunderstanding of evolution.

AbbeFaria wrote:
And also, what might have spawned the almost complete lack of body hair?

A random mutation that might have been advantageous in some way, or might simply have not been damaging to the potential for reproduction.

You can explain why a trait would have been advantageous and therefore why it might exist, but you can't apply that in the reverse and expect that trait to exist everywhere it would have been an advantage because the mutation just simply might not have occurred.
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