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Here, boy! Atta' boy. Boshintang Battles here. Meong-meong!!
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flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: Here, boy! Atta' boy. Boshintang Battles here. Meong-meong!!

SuperFly wrote:

We managed to free these poor guys last year before feeding time.

Not enough rescues these days...people are just becoming more and more like animals.

Some not so lucky brothers

AliNZ wrote:

I've seen the dog farms - they come in all shapes and sizes ...even saw one hapless fluffy white poodle!!!

There is one particular breed - a big hevy set type that predominates, but is no way the onely breed.

But if it makes you feel better in believing it....

holeinthesky wrote:

"A society can be judged by the way it treats its animals" MK Ghandi

Im just curious. Can you honestly happily eat that, knowing the animal may have been burnt alive? Most likely tortured in some way to release adrenalin into the blood and "tenderize" the meat?

Not wanting to start a rant, I know this has been done before....but with all other meat. ie pork, chicken beef (although the killing methods may not be humane) the animals are not deliberately tortured for a purpose, as in dog meat.

I've heard all the arguments and justifications. ANYWAY, my thoughts are that we shouldnt eat any animal that can show us affection... Crying or Very sad

bellum99 wrote:

Dead is dead. I have seen some very brutal ways to kill animals and one thing is always true...they died. I think it doesn't matter what animal it is because they are basically the same. It doesn't matter if it is a cow, horse or dog.
If you have never personally been to a slaughter yard then you have no opinion. It is never pretty...they don't lull the cows to sleep with soft music before gently easing them into cow heaven.
If you eat meat, then you eat meat. Who cares if it is dog?

VanIslander wrote:

holeinthehead wrote:

...with all other meat. ie pork, chicken beef (although the killing methods may not be humane) the animals are not deliberately tortured for a purpose, as in dog meat.

For a different purpose, profit, they are tortured.

Spend some time in a slaughterhouse in Canada or America, see and hear how they die, and then get back to us.

I was a vegetarian for years afterwards. Am back at meat, largely due to a childhood habit and a conscious attempt to avoid thinking of the horrors of the meat industry.

There is no moral high ground for us meat eaters.

red dog wrote:

I always say I won't take the bait whenever this topic comes up, but I always lose my resolve for some reason. Oh well, it's a slow day at work. (I seem to have so many of them in Japan.) Here goes:

Quote:

my ex lived with her grandma on jejudo for much of her adolescent life after her parents split up. she explained that she received some pretty disrespectful treatment because she was the daughter of the younger son or something like that.

she had a dog. she left her area for some time, and when she came back, her dog was missing.

her uncle hated her, and she suspected him, a dog meat fan, of killing it.

sure enough, he did. but by dragging it behind his car.

had we married, i am sure the guy would not understand the headstomping he was receiving from his nephew-in-law 16 or so years after the fact. but it wouldn't really matter to me.

I used to work with a woman who'd had a chicken as a childhood companion, and my co-worker's grandmother killed the chicken for dinner. She said she couldn't eat chickens "for a long time," but eventually I guess she changed her mind, and her attitude was sort of like, "oh well, my grandmother was a farm person ..."

She was Korean, but I'm sure similar stories are not that uncommon in other countries.

Quote:

Spend some time in a slaughterhouse in Canada or America, see and hear how they die, and then get back to us.

I was a vegetarian for years afterwards. Am back at meat, largely due to a childhood habit

and a conscious attempt to avoid thinking of the horrors of the meat industry.

There is no moral high ground for us meat eaters.

I mostly agree with this perspective, but why not get back on the wagon then? Also, some people start out by having compassion for animals they can relate to and then extend it to other animals. I'm glad people are upset at the way dogs are treated and hope more people will want to learn about the horrible things that happen to other animals too.

Quote:

Agree in part -- but how can you say it "doesn't matter" how much they suffer? That sounds so callous. Of course it matters -- we need to start broadcasting slaughterhouse footage into every household and educate everyone about all the horrible things that happen to "food" animals before they're killed. Maybe people would finally see how wrong it is. But even if they did "lull the cows to sleep with soft music," it would still be wrong.

And I would add that it doesn't matter whether they're dogs, cows, sea animals, ostriches, or any other animals who can feel pain -- including humans. We're animals too.

Quote:

I've heard all the arguments and justifications. ANYWAY, my thoughts are that we shouldnt eat any animal that can show us affection... :

Cows, pigs and chickens can all be very affectionate if they're raised with humans.

Quote:

We managed to free these poor guys last year before feeding time.

I'm so glad you saved them, Superfly. You're so right -- a lot more rescues are desperately needed.

Quote:

I've seen the dog farms - they come in all shapes and sizes ...even saw one hapless

fluffy white poodle!!!

There is one particular breed - a big hevy set type that predominates, but is no way the onely breed.

But if it makes you feel better in believing it....

Yes, that's what a Korean animal rescuer told me when I was trying to find a home for my foster dog, Amber (who has since been adopted and renamed Bangwuli). This woman said Amber was in danger of being eaten even though she's small and cute -- fortunately she ended up on my roof instead of the roof of a butcher shop or dogmeat restaurant.

Quote:

"A society can be judged by the way it treats its animals" MK Ghandi

Gandhi was a smart guy -- and really, no society on Earth has much to be proud of. Crying or Very sad

Other stories that may be related:

On several occasions when I was in Korea, I had a few bites of kimchi or a few spoonfuls of doenjang jjigae before realizing they weren't vegetarian foods, even though I'd been assured they were. And once I started eating what looked like a perfectly safe side dish only to find bits of meat (probably from a pig) at the bottom. Of course I felt bad, but I learned to be more careful.

Even so, I'm sure I've made other mistakes and didn't realize it. I'm trying to stay out of nonveg restaurants these days.

Quote:

They twisted the wire around the dog�s neck. The friend stayed up on the bridge and Mr. Choi jumped down off the bridge and picked up a steel pipe. The friend shoved the dog off the bridge and Mr. Choi started beating on it. In its struggles, the dog wriggled free.

Oh, no! Mr. Choi and the friend started chasing the dog, but couldn�t catch it. After a couple of hours they returned to the village and told the old man, who pitched a fit.

Poor Mr. Choi and his friend were ordered to search for the dog. For two days they hiked up and down mountains calling for the dog. They never found it.

Canines: 1 Humans 0

(Unfortunately the Hangeul got scrambled on this computer, even though I could see it on the screen.)

Good for the dog. I hope he got a good home and didn't fall into the hands of another butcher ... or a vivisector or dogcatcher ...

Reminds me of the story of Emily the cow:

http://www.peaceabbey.org/sanctuary/emily.htm

About the dog/duck thing, I always seemed to have a hard time pronouncing the word "tteok" properly. People sometimes thought I was saying dog when I wasn't. It was frustrating.

I never met any Koreans who were really into dog-eating or would ever try to bully others into it -- one guy told me he'd tried it, and a few other people told me people in their family had tried it. Most Koreans I talked to seemed to be against it or had a somewhat negative attitude towards it. ... But I guess my experience was a bit different from other people's experiences?

Demophobe wrote:

3 months into my stay in Korea, I was walking to school when a van parked beside the sidewalk throws open the back doors and starts hauling out dead dogs, all piled into the back...about 20 carcasses.

Rigamortis had set in, so they wer being lifted out like chairs - by the legs, at the end of which their feet were frozen, claws fully extended and feet completely flexed. The dogs were all blackened from burning the hair off and their faces were locked in a horrible snarling expression. The anus was cut out in a large hole very crudely and the ears had been hacked off, exposing the skull underneath.

I can't eat dog because of this. It was the most horrible state I had (have) ever seen a dead animal in. Obviously it had suffered terribly before dying. I realize all 'for-food' animals have it rough in the end, and some along the way. This was beyond anything I could imagine doing to any animal. It's as if they hated the dogs while they were alive.

flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:26 am Post subject:

Hobophobic wrote:

VanIslander wrote:

Spend some time in a slaughterhouse in Canada or America, see and hear how they die, and then get back to us.

I was a vegetarian for years afterwards. Am back at meat, largely due to a childhood habit and a conscious attempt to avoid thinking of the horrors of the meat industry.

There is no moral high ground for us meat eaters.

One of my friends worked for a meat packaging plant...his station was the hotdog conveyor belt...he still gags if he sees someone eat a hotdog and leaves the room...it has been 12 years...

red dog wrote:

khyber wrote:

a few moments of torture before death is pretty terrible no doubt, but consider how veal calves are treated back home.

Koreans don't deserve any more punishment than veal eaters!

I'm going tomorrow for my first dog meat experience...
BUT, I am wondering.
It sounds like the galbi style is more delicious than soups and jungols...

So, what do y'all think i "should" eat?

Sanchon in Insa-dong is the best ... Maybe Rteacher can post a link?

About veal, here's a link to a pro-killing-baby-calves-for-veal site. ("Special-fed veal" = sick, tortured baby animal not allowed to move anywhere for his entire life.) While the author's perspective doesn't do much for me, it does clearly establish the connection between the dairy industry and the veal industry -- another point we all need to consider.

http://www.dqacenter.org/quest/96/oct965.htm

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Korea is a a so-called predominantely Buddhist country, and one of the central tennants of Buddhism, from what I can gather, is vegetarianism.

I think this is so because I have recently read two books by Asian Buddhists, one by a Korean Zen Master, and one by a Thai Buddhist Monk.

Both say that the overwhelming amount of animal-for-food slaughtering going on in the world is contributing to suffering in humans, as we become more animal-like in our nature, or something along those lines.

It is just interesting to see that Koreans treat animals with such disdain, while so many of them are Buddhists. I even had a taxi driver with a cab covered in Buddhist stuff, talking on his cell phone about going to a dog meat restaurant.

Anyway, the Buddhist thinking on this subject should be examined. It seems like a relevent point of discussion, in terms of how we respect life, and how we rely on the eating of meat far too much, and what the ramifications of this are in our world.

pocketfluff wrote:

Quote:

And I would add that it doesn't matter whether they're dogs, cows, sea animals, ostriches, or any other animals who can feel pain

I disagree. Dogs were bred to be social brings so humans and dogs could interact while going about their daily duties (herding, fetching prey, guarding the home, etc). As the human race is responsible for making dogs rely on us for food, comfort, and companionship, it is our duty not to turn them into a food source.

In addition, they are highly intelligent creatures who suffer much more psychological pain than other animals (such as cows and fish, but maybe not pigs) when they are kept in small cages with no social interaction.

seoulkitchen wrote:

To all of you who are going to eat a dog in the near future:

I am rather hooked on the 'nose leather' of dogs. It is so velvety soft and cute!
I'm planning on making a jacket out of dog noses.
So if you go to one of those restaurants could you sneak in the back and pick up a few noses for me? (or if you find one in your soup, save it for me!)

I'm also considering making shoes out of the paws, what do you think?

Thanks!

red dog wrote:

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Well, from what I know about Buddhism, vegetarianism is encouraged but not required and most lay Buddhists in Korea aren't veg. They seem to be less likely than most Western people to dismiss it as a stupid idea, though.

Buddhist monks and nuns in Korea are usually vegetarians, but I'm not sure if it's an official requirement. The guy who runs Sanchon is a former Buddhist monk, and the food there is animal-free and delicious. (I'm pretty sure there was a fish product in the kimchi at some point a few years ago, but I believe this was a mistake and it's been corrected.)

red dog wrote:

pocketfluff wrote:

Quote:

And I would add that it doesn't matter whether they're dogs, cows, sea animals, ostriches, or any other animals who can feel pain

There's so much we humans still don't know about animal intelligence, and so much of what used to be considered "common knowledge" is turning out to be wrong. I haven't had a chance to read this book yet, but I hope I can read it soon:

http://www.whatthebook.com/book/1572703717?

Anyway, you cut off my most important point -- humans need to be on the list along with all the other animals. We aren't "above" them just because we like to think we are.

I also don't know how you can deny that animals on factory farms suffer psychologically when they're confined so closely that they have no opportunities to express natural behaviours such as rooting (pigs), dust-bathing and nesting (egg-laying hens), or grazing in a field (veal calves). Most of these animals live in their own *beep* for their entire lives and breathe filthy air every day that humans need to wear masks to protect themselves from.

I agree that we're responsible for protecting dogs because we've made them completely dependent on us, but that goes for all domesticated animals IMO. If anything, we owe farmed animals even more protection because we've caused so many of them so much suffering for so long.

That said, let's not support the growth of an industry that will cause even more animals to be confined in horrible conditions and slaughtered in extremely cruel ways. A lot of the pro-dog-eating posts here are in really, really poor taste.

flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:29 am Post subject:

flotsam wrote:

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Korea is a a so-called predominantely Buddhist country,

It is not. There are now more Christians than Buddhists but both populations float around 25% with non-religionists making up the other 50ish.

blaseblasphemener wrote:

and one of the central tennants of Buddhism, from what I can gather, is vegetarianism.

It is not. Killing is restricted. Vegetarianism is often implied to be preferable, but there have been, many, many exceptions: for example, in some traditions monks who receive meat in their alms bowls may eat it and HH the DL eats meat for reasons of health.

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Both say that the overwhelming amount of animal-for-food slaughtering going on in the world is contributing to suffering in humans, as we become more animal-like in our nature, or something along those lines.

I would like to see these quotes, rather than something along these lines.

blaseblasphemener wrote:

I think this is so because I have recently read two books by Asian Buddhists, one by a Korean Zen Master, and one by a Thai Buddhist Monk.

Really.

blaseblasphemener wrote:

It is just interesting to see that Koreans treat animals with such disdain, while so many of them are Buddhists. I even had a taxi driver with a cab covered in Buddhist stuff, talking on his cell phone about going to a dog meat restaurant.

Seems far-fetched to say the least. Can you type exactly what he said? Cheers.

blaseblasphemener wrote:

Anyway, the Buddhist thinking on this subject should be examined. It seems like a relevent point of discussion, in terms of how we respect life, and how we rely on the eating of meat far too much, and what the ramifications of this are in our world.

Sure, why not? What are your thoughts then?

P.S. Dog is yummy, like eggplant or belgian fries.

pocketfluff wrote:

Quote:

I also don't know how you can deny that animals on factory farms suffer psychologically

I should have made it clearer, but I don't deny the point you made above (if you look back at my post, I said "much more"; I was quantifying the degree of suffering, not denying it outright for other animals). I only disagreed that dogs, whom we've bred into being completely dependant on humans for companionship as well as well-being, should not be considered on the same level as other animals.

Factory farms are indeed atrocious, but raising cows, pigs, or ostriches for consumption is fine in my book. I'm a vegetarian, mind you, but that's only because I lack the resources to make sure that my meat has been handled in a compassionate way prior to making its way on my plate.

The entire point of my original post, I guess, is that there should be a pecking order in the animal kingdom on how they should be treated by human beings:
1. Animals bred for companionship
2. Domesticated animals that are known to be highly intelligent
3. Domesticated animals
4. Animals with the capacity to feel pain
5. Animals without the capacity to feel pain

Quote:

If anything, we owe farmed animals even more protection because we've caused so many of them so much suffering for so long.

Sorry, not with you there. I'm not prepared to give reparations to animals. Laughing

red dog wrote:

pocketfluff wrote:

Quote:

I also don't know how you can deny that animals on factory farms suffer psychologically

OK, I see what you're saying, but I don't think we have any right to create hierarchies and say that some animals are more important than others. We're animals, like all the other animals, and it's arrogant for us to view certain species as "better" or "higher" because humans happen to like them and (sometimes) choose to keep them as companions. As far as their degree of suffering goes, I don't see how we can be so sure that dogs suffer more than other animals. I'd have to see really strong evidence before I could ever accept that statement.

Quote:

Factory farms are indeed atrocious, but raising cows, pigs, or ostriches for consumption is fine in my book. I'm a vegetarian, mind you, but that's only because I lack the resources to make sure that my meat has been handled in a compassionate way prior to making its way on my plate.

That position makes sense to me, although it's not where I'm coming from -- at least not anymore, after having given these matters a lot of thought over many years. But I'm glad you made that decision and wish more people would do the same.

Quote:

If anything, we owe farmed animals even more protection because we've caused so many of them so much suffering for so long.

Sorry, not with you there. I'm not prepared to give reparations to animals. Laughing

Well, fortunately for all of us we'll probably never have to. But I think we would, in a fairer world.[/quote]

pocketfluff wrote:

red dog wrote:

Gotcha. We just have a different view on the role of human beings in this world and I can understand why you feel that way.

Quote:

As far as their degree of suffering goes, I don't see how we can be so sure that dogs suffer more than other animals. I'd have to see really strong evidence before I could ever accept that statement.

I guess part of my POV comes from the fact that I have two little monsters of my own and it would make me suffer psychologically to see them put in the positions of those dogs in Korea. Wink

holeinthesky wrote:

pocketfluff wrote:

Quote:

I also don't know how you can deny that animals on factory farms suffer psychologically

OK, I see what you're saying, but I don't think we have any right to create hierarchies and say that some animals are more important than others. .

In theory this seems logical. I am vegetarian. I can put up with people eating meat all around me, but I don't think I could watch a friend sit down to a plate of stewed Chimpanzee.

The problem is, where do we draw the line? Squashing mosquito, then killing rats, shooting birds, chickens.....sheep....cows..whales...cats....dogs, then what?

One thing is for sure,...my dog is more intelligent than the most stupid person I know.

It's all very complicated. But for me, I can't deal with ANY creature being tortured/put through pain simply for our culinary pleasure. Whether its to tenderize the meat, save money on the factory line.....

Then I think. Well, what can I do? Not much. The longer I live the more convincing Karmic retribution seems. What comes around goes around.

Alan Partidge wrote:

bellum99 wrote:

I'm so tired of this idiotic logic when the dog meat issue gets trotted out yet again.
Dogs are just different.
Yes, other animals are killed cruelly too, but how many people take their pet chicken to the beach? How many people take their pet cow for a walk down to the park and throw a stick to it?
If someone tricked me into eating it (I doubt that they could) there would be a problem.

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

How many people take their pet cow for a walk down to the park and throw a stick to it?

How many people in non-Western countries keep dogs as pets? It certainly has never been common in Asian countries although it is becoming more popular.

By the way, the French eat horse, which to us Brits is pretty disgusting.

Quote:

We're animals, like all the other animals,

The fact that you, as a human, are able to make a moral choice about eating meat sets you apart from all other species that are not able to make such moral choices. I have no problem with vegetarians, but when you start saying that 'humans are no different' to other animals you sound remarkably similar to animal rights extremists who compare chicken farms to Nazi concentration camps. I have actually heard such people say that the life of a baby chicken is worth the same as that of a human child.

flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:33 am Post subject:

FYI: This is also the appropriate thread for "Flotsam is such an arrogant beep! Who the hell does he think he is...?" discussions. And since I asked you to move, let me throw out that I am a practicing Buddhist(although the belief-o-meter has me pegged as a Unitarian) who has spent 10 of his years as a vegetarian(not now) and has gone back and forth on the issue considerably. I just think hijacking what was a very interesting, culturally relevant thread for veterans and newbies alike was counter-productive to all sides of the issue. Flame away or have fun. --f.

trigger123

Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Location: TALKING TO STRANGERS, IN A BETTER PLACE

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:25 am Post subject:

would love to add something but all i can think is bloody hell you have a lot of free time

flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:32 am Post subject:

trigger123 wrote:

would love to add something but all i can think is bloody hell you have a lot of free time

Exam week and tons of rewriting work=lots of dead time in front of a computer.

But the above took less than 2 minutes.

But the real catch is: I don't use socks. Damn my principles...

Demophobe

Joined: 17 May 2004

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:47 am Post subject:

flotsam wrote:

I don't use socks. Damn my principles...

They don't let you wear socks?

Dan The Chainsawman

Joined: 05 May 2005

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:49 am Post subject:

Here have mine: http://www.genevievecartoons.com/fark/DirtySocks.jpg

red dog

Joined: 31 Oct 2004

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:00 am Post subject:

flotsam wrote:

FYI:

This is also the appropriate thread for "Flotsam is such an arrogant *beep*! Who the hell does he think he is...?" discussions.

And since I asked you to move, let me throw out that I am a practicing Buddhist(although the belief-o-meter has me pegged as a Unitarian) who has spent 10 of his years as a vegetarian(not now) and has gone back and forth on the issue considerably.

I just think hijacking what was a very interesting, culturally relevant thread for veterans and newbies alike was counter-productive to all sides of the issue.

Flame away or have fun.

--f.

I completely disagree that anyone hijacked the other thread or that people don't have the right to voice their objections to a call for funny stories about a notorious practice. However, I also agree that the topic has been done to death and I'm very tired right now.

Later ...

flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:05 am Post subject:

red dog wrote:

I completely disagree that anyone hijacked the other thread or that people don't have the right to voice their objections to a call for funny stories about a notorious practice.

Opinion.

Which can be expressed right here! Smile

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:19 am Post subject:

flotsam: 2006 Mod Candidate of the Year

Juregen

Joined: 30 May 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:19 am Post subject:

I don't mind eating meat. Too bad it gets unhealthy to eat vast amounts of it, so i refrain from eating too much of it. But not for the sake of animals tbh. I am a racist. HUMANS FIRST.

flotsam

Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:48 am Post subject:

Zyzyfer wrote:

flotsam: 2006 Mod Candidate of the Year

Dick.

As I have said before, I am having all the fun I can with geekdom before September.

Clock's a-tickin'(much to many's delight, I reckon...)

And as for you...I'll have it out with you soon enough, you, you...something!

SuperFly

Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:04 am Post subject:

murderers! edit: I guess my little picture post started this whole hoopla huh? wow, sorry everyone!

Zyzyfer

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:08 am Post subject:

flotsam wrote:

Zyzyfer wrote:

flotsam: 2006 Mod Candidate of the Year

*beep*.

As I have said before, I am having all the fun I can with geekdom before September.

Clock's a-tickin'(much to many's delight, I reckon...)

And as for you...I'll have it out with you soon enough, you, you...something!

All that babble. Truth hurts, don't it? Twisted Evil

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